Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

LOL Gumby,
But which Stooge am I? Probably Curly LOL.
Joseph said:
Where do you get the idea that the seven spirits are the holy spirit? Now you have 9 persons that make up the nature of God instead of three? This is not evidence.
Joseph, I already posted information showing that the "seven spirits" could not be created angels.
In order for the "seven spirits" to be created angels, it would mean that John was praying to seven angels asking them to give grace [undeserved kindess] to Christians.
That means John prayed to The Father, seven created angels, and THEN The Son??????
John would put seven created angels IN FRONT of Jesus in His prayer????
The Supreme Being is the source of grace [undeserved kindness], and Jesus Christ is our ONLY Mediator, so why in the world would John ask seven created angels to distribute grace to Christians????
Just what are you claiming that the "seven spirits" are, Joseph?
Correct me if I am wrong on this, but in the Bible, SEVEN is used to signify absolute completeness or an infinite number.
For example, when Jesus said to forgive people 77 times, was that literal? Are we supposed to be keeping track and counting up to 77 sins? Or does that mean that we are supposed to forgive people an inifinite number of times?
See my point?
The Holy Spirit is called "The Seven Spirits" because He is absolute in power and He provides an infinite number of various blessings to Christians.
Note the following Verses:
1st Corinthians 12:4: Now there are various kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1st Corinthians 12:7: But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all.
1st Corinthians 12:8: For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
1st Corinthians 12:9: to another faith, by the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, by the same Spirit;
1st Corinthians 12:10: and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages.
1st Corinthians 12:11: But the one and the same Spirit works all of these, distributing to each one separately as He desires.
Joseph, are you saying that seven created angels are supposed to be prayed to and that we are supposed to ask the seven created angels for grace [undeserved kindness]?
Colossians 2:18: Let no one rob you of your prize by... worshipping of the angels...
Joseph said:
This just shows that Trinitarians will say anything just like the Watchtower does.
Well, Joseph, you have ignored most of my main points, just like JW's do when dealing with people they accuse of being Apostates.
Joseph said:
Where is Gabriel in all this? Where are the other non-human beings God has at His disposal like the angel that delivered the Revelation to John?
I may have missed your point, but what does Gabriel have to do with this particular discussion?
Joseph said:
If God does everything personally then what does He need so many creatures for?
So, Joseph you are now claiming that God NEEDS His created angels?
Joseph, I have never, ever said that God does everything personally. I have only said that if God Himself says that He did something ALONE, BY HIMSELF, then He means what He said.
Let me ask you Joseph, why should you believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth personally? Why do you believe that God did not delegate that to a created angel?
The Watchtower Society loves to claim that God did not mean what He actually said, so they twist His statements around to something else than what He said, and it appears that is what you are doing.
Joseph said:
What do you think they do? Just bow down and worship all day long or run around and deliver messages, something that God can do better and faster? Trinitarians just do not get it.
Created angels do whatever God tells them to do. They have done whatever the Scriptures say they have done, HOWEVER.....
The Supreme Being does not NEED any creatures.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 6 February 2003 21:8:12
JosephMalik

In order for the "seven spirits" to be created angels, it would mean that John was praying to seven angels asking them to give grace [undeserved kindess] to Christians.
Undisfellowshipped,
And what is wrong with that? After all they were there before the throne, so who better to send greetings to the seven churches? After all that is what it says. Actually the greetings are from John, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come;, from the seven spirits, and from Jesus Christ. No problem whatever. You have no case, no proof at all for your interpretation.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Joseph
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph said:
And what is wrong with that? After all they were there before the throne, so who better to send greetings to the seven churches?
I rest my case.
You must believe that praying to angels is a good thing for Christians to do.
I see no point in further discussion.
The people on this Website are smart.
When they read through this Thread, and when they read the Scriptures, they can come to their own well-informed decisions on what is the truth.
Joseph said:
After all that is what it says. Actually the greetings are from John, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come;, from the seven spirits, and from Jesus Christ. No problem whatever. You have no case, no proof at all for your interpretation.
It is obvious to me in Revelation 1:4, that John is praying to The Father, the Seven Spirits, and Jesus Christ and asking for grace and peace.
You must have some mighty special created angels in order for John to mention them immediately after the Father, and BEFORE he mentions Jesus Christ.
In fact, they must be extremely special in order for John to be able to PRAY TO THEM.
I find it highly interesting that, out of several Scriptures I posted about the Holy Spirit, you picked out only one Verse and then you didn't comment on any of the others. Why is that?
JosephMalik

You must believe that praying to angels is a good thing for Christians to do.
Undisfellowshipped,
Poorly, poorly done. All I did was comment on your perception of the text and did not bother to correct this part of it which did not matter anyway. This is also why I showed the entire text so the proper context could be viewed and understood. All the text shows are greetings being passed along from John and the individuals present in the vision. You see how trinitarians not only lead with false and distorted information but then accuse others of falsehood when they use it in a response as if this is what I am saying. The trinity is not the truth and trinitarians will use deception such as this whenever it suits them. I have come to the conclusion that trinitarians will never understand scripture.
Joseph
SwedishChef

The trinity is not the truth

Joseph, your really beginning to sound like a broken record. Just who are you trying to convince of this?

Out of all your boastings you have yet back up a single claim. Time and time again clear Scripture is presented which you either grievously distort or completely blow off. Often in response you call us deceptive and spiritually impaired. Please! Anyone with an open mind can look over this thread and see that you have no case, and we have a tremendous amount of backing.

It is very clear that you are putting your own twist on the Scriptures and not letting them speak for themselves. I see no more point in debating someone with such a disposition.

I sincerely hope that God gives you no rest until you become acquainted with the real Jesus Christ, who is the Lord of all, not a created angel.
JosephMalik

SwedishChef,
Is this the best you can do? Anyone can read my posts and see it is the other way around. trinitarians always resort to tactics such as yours when they lose such discussions. I see you are no different. The trinity doctrine is a lie. God is a single Being with only ONE name. The Son is another Being entirely with two names one of which is Michael. This is what this discussion is all about and this is the discussion trinitarians lost.
Joseph
UnDisfellowshipped

I thought I would post a Summary of this Thread:

Joseph Malik's accusations against me [and a few against Swedish Chef]:
You did not represent the text [of Jude 1:4] correctly
are you one of the certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness?
you avoided commenting on much of what I offered.
You keep pouring verses out without explanation. That may be helpful in some cases but mis-leading in others.
you do not have an answer. Just say anything that comes to your mind just like the WT does. Provide scriptural proof for such statements since you made them.
Scripture taken out of context does not a truth make.
This is what I dislike about Trinitarians. They accuse others of lying when they are the ones that are doing the lying.
Such ignorance on the part of Trinitarians
you go on and on like this as if matching texts without regard to such context proves your point?
I have shown where and how authority is given to others to perform tasks for YHWH which you are also unable to counter. Thus verses must be taken out of context in Trinitarian theology and such truth must be suppressed. This is visible in the way you present data and apply texts. All this has been covered over and over. You cannot provide a name for the Holy Spirit, nor can you show that the name of the Son is YHWH. You cannot show that Michael is not the proper name for the Logos.
Nothing regarding the trinity doctrine is the truth and the way Trinitarians distort and mis-apply scripture is as bad and even worse than the way the Watchtower misrepresents them.
You are the one that is ignoring the information presented.
The way you apply texts without regard to their context is very visible. And the fact that authority is give to others to act in the name of God directly is rejected by you even though it has been shown clearly.
You keep using the verses that do not [go into details] as if they are absolute and reject any other evidence offered. This is not my problem but yours and everyone can see this.
Trinitarians will say anything just like the Watchtower does.
Trinitarians just do not get it.
You see how trinitarians not only lead with false and distorted information but then accuse others of falsehood when they use it in a response as if this is what I am saying. The trinity is not the truth and trinitarians will use deception such as this whenever it suits them. I have come to the conclusion that trinitarians will never understand scripture.
trinitarians always resort to tactics such as [Swedish Chef's] when they lose such discussions. I see you [Swedish Chef] are no different. The trinity doctrine is a lie.
this is the discussion trinitarians lost.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 8 February 2003 1:35:32
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph Malik's statements about what he believes and teaches others about the Bible:
As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.
The Son did not do any of this [creation of the literal Heavens and Earth]. Only the LORD (Yahweh) did and yahweh is not the name of the Son or the Logos. This is the very point of this discussion is it not? But things like human beings and animals are another matter. Who created them? Beings only identified as us in Genesis. The Logos created man and had authority over man. Such things were delegated to others. Does no one ever wonder why Satan took the form of a serpent? Could it not be that this Satan had something to do with the creation of such animal life and had authority over them as well?
In fact Hebrews chapter 1, 2 and 12 use the term angels to describe such human beings that have embraced the faith by spreading the message of truth and that will function as such in the kingdom helping the unrighteous to overcome their shortcomings. It is an endearing Jewish term for those in the faith and is used as such in Hebrews.
The Father has a name: Jehovah
The Word has a non-human name: Michael
And after becoming flesh has a human name: Jesus
Makes sense to me.
Would the Bible say (using Jude1:4 as a basis) that a created angel is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"? The only correct answer that can be given to is yes.
What is the non-human name of the Logos? Daniel 12:1-2 shows that it is Michael that stands up at the time of the resurrection. This connection with Michael, the book of life and Jesus is a simple one
And Jesus is not the Supreme Being. In fact Jesus can use many of the titles that also apply to the Supreme Being, yes, except for His Name. This Jesus cannot share.
men have perverted such truth regarding our Savior and Redeemer that was placed in this position by the authority of God Himself to be such a Master, God and Lord over us (at least until the thousand years ends).
How much of this [creation] did God do personally and how much was delegated by Him? Just who were the us that assisted with such projects? Some scriptures provide such detail such as the ones in John chapter 1 and some do not. So can you show exactly who such participants were and their specific roles? Of course all credit goes to God or Yahweh. But we also know that the Logos actually did create man when he was with God and had authority over man. What better Being to select for mans redemption than this Logos that did such work in the beginning?
The creation of such large objects was done by God alone, but the little things like mankind that would live on this earth was delegated to the Logos to do this for Him. And others like the Being that became Satan were also involved in some way in all this.
What difference does the definition [of a word] make?
Well for your information John identifies the Logos as the creator of man not God or Jesus. The human Jesus did not as yet exist when man came into existence did he?
The word God is used of the Supreme Being, but it is also used to describe the Kings of Israel.
Michael as the non-human name for the Logos identifies this Logos by name as YHWH identifies the Father by name.
Michael is actually identified as the Christ in this text [Revelation]
The fact that Michael is used in both the Old and New testamants confirms that fact that Michael not only was but still is the name of the Logos that became Christ.
The Father is what the Supreme Being is called in scripture and the name YHWH belongs to Him. There is no such thing as a Son that is also true God or a Holy Spirit that is true God so YHWY does not apply to them.
Father is the only true God not Jesus or Logos.
this name [YHWH] applies to God alone also known as the Father. It is the Fathers kingdom that the Son was given and will rule over for a limited period of time until the end when it is returned to the Father.
The Son has delegated authority from God and is not equal to God as shown. The trinity is not the truth and never was.
God delegates authority and the angel in the burning bush is but one example. Not every single act of creation was performed/or delivered by God personally.
The heavens and the earth were created by Him (God) alone. That much we know. Much of the rest of creation was delegated to "us"
That Jesus is aware of individuals and events does not make Jesus or God for that matter Omnipresent. How such things are done are detailed in scriptures. Angels spoke for God like the one in the burning bush and the use of such angels actually proves the opposite. Your statement that Jesus is Omnipresent is not truth and such words are not supported by the Faith or included in the message we are obligated to teach others..... Information is both gathered and dispensed using intermediaries such as angels thus words like Omnipresent have no support in scripture and in fact are not found in it.
This verse [Hebrews 1:10] is not talking about planets or stars. It is talking about human beings and the governments that rule it in much the same way as Paul did in Col 1:15. You should have know this since such humanity and government will pass away and replaced by the kingdom which will totally absorb them. The literal heavens and stars will not pass away
So not only is YHWH the God of Jesus, this same YHWH has appointed and authorized this Son to function in His place the same as if He were YHWH much the same as the angel in the burning bush did.
Referring to Zechariah 12:10:
YHWH can be represented personally by others. So scriptures especially prophetic ones can be fulfilled by such representatives. Therefore you have no proof that the representative is actually or literally the YHWH as you claim.
the Son functioned in a capacity the same as if He was the God that uttered these words through Zechariah.
The trinity is not the truth and never was. It is a corruption of scripture and is the main reason why so many cannot understand it.
the Logos and not God created man in the beginning
The trinity doctrine is not the truth and never was. It is a false teaching that not only confused many texts used here but makes the proper understanding of scripture difficult if not impossible for many.
the trinity is not the truth and never was. It detracts from the simple clarity of the texts and makes them complex.
After I stated to Joseph that if the "seven spirits" in Revelation were created angels, it would mean that John was praying to the angels, Joseph responded and said:
And what is wrong with that?
The trinity doctrine is a lie. God is a single Being with only ONE name. The Son is another Being entirely with two names one of which is Michael.
JosephMalik

Undisfellowshipped,
Wrong again. You just do not understand do you? For one thing you should never tell someone what I believe and teach. It is not your place since you cannot grasp what I have said. It is much the same with scripture. Trinitarians do not grasp the context of it. For such reasons trinitarians will never understand scripture correctly.
Joseph
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph,
Are you upset because I quoted verbatim / word-for-word what you said your beliefs are in this Thread?
Or, are you upset because I quoted verbatim / word-for-word your railing accusations against me and Swedish Chef?
Which one are you upset about?
Jude 1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."
I find it interesting how Michael the archangel would not even dare to bring a railing accusation against Satan the Devil, but Joseph Malik has brought several railing accusations against Swedish Chef and me in this one Thread.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 8 February 2003 23:14:44

Michael the Archangel

The Supreme Being does not NEED any creatures.

I thought I would post a Summary of this Thread:

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