by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible
Jesus could even be EZEKIEL reincarnated!! After all, Zeke was called "son of man" in 2:6 of his book, along with many other places.
So if two people hold the same title then they must be the same?
Sorry if I'm being flippant, I'm just a bit tired of the Jesus-is-God rumblings that appear on this board with darn near the regularity of the "Old Faithful" geyser in Wyoming. I got extremely tired of that debate while I was a JW.
Gopher of the too-weary class
Joseph, you said:
Joseph responds: Of course! But the truth is no one know how the WORD came into existence nor does anyone understand the nature of such non-human beings. None of this is described in scripture. Just what kind of non-human are they? Descriptions such as angel or archangel do not tell us anything about their composition. So saying that Jesus is a created Angel means nothing and does not prove your point.
First of all, when I asked if the Bible would say that a "Created being" is our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master, you say "Of course!", but where are the Scriptures to back that statement up?
Undisfellowshipped,
This is not what you said. What you really said was this: Also, in Jude 1:4, it says that Jesus Christ is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master". Would the Bible say that a created angel is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"?
I responded to the text not your unsupported statement regarding it. You did not represent the text correctly and I was being nice about it since it is specific enough to condemn your views over which we have had lengthy discussions. The verse you used is:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now you are the one by your own admission that said: Jesus Christ is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master". Did I miss that part of the verse or are you one of the certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness?
Joseph
Joseph,
I just want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with you or anyone else believing whatever you truly believe is true.
The main point of making this Thread is because I do have a problem with the Watchtower Society dogmatically telling others that they must believe that Jesus Christ is Michael, a created angel who is inferior to the Father, because the Governing Body says so.
Now, about Jude 1:4, I do commend you for questioning me about that Verse.
Here are how several different Translations read at Jude 1:4:
1901 American Standard Version:
For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
1965 Bible in Basic English:
For certain men have come among you secretly, marked out before in the holy Writings for this evil fate, men without the fear of God, turning his grace into an unclean thing, and false to our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Contemporary English Version:
Some godless people have sneaked in among us and are saying, "God treats us much better than we deserve, and so it is all right to be immoral." They even deny that we must obey Jesus Christ as our only Master and Lord. But long ago the Scriptures warned that these godless people were doomed.
1889 Darby Bible:
For certain men have got in unnoticed, they who of old were marked out beforehand to this sentence, ungodly persons , turning the grace of our God into dissoluteness, and denying our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ.
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible:
For certain men are secretly entered in (who were written of long ago unto this judgment), ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness and denying the only sovereign Ruler and our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Good News Bible Translation:
For some godless people have slipped in unnoticed among us, persons who distort the message about the grace of our God in order to excuse their immoral ways, and who reject Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord. Long ago the Scriptures predicted the condemnation they have received.
GOD'S WORD Translation:
Some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. Not long ago they were condemned in writing for the following reason: They are people to whom God means nothing. They use God's kindness as an excuse for sexual freedom and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
International Standard Version:
For some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. They were written about long ago as being deserving of this condemnation because they are ungodly. They turn the grace of our God into uncontrollable lust and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Literal Translation of the Holy Bible:
For certain men stole in, those of old having been written before to this judgment, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God into unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.
Modern King James Version:
For certain men crept in secretly, those having been of old previously written into this condemnation, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God for unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.
Revised Standard Version:
For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
New Revised Standard Version:
For certain intruders have stolen in among you, people who long ago were designated for this condemnation as ungodly, who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
1912 Weymouth New Testament:
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed--men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation--ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord.
New International Version:
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
New American Standard Version:
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Amplified Bible:
For certain men have crept in stealthily [gaining entrance secretly by a side door]. Their doom was predicted long ago, ungodly (impious, profane) persons who pervert the grace (the spiritual blessing and favor) of our God into lawlessness and wantonness and immorality, and disown and deny our sole Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
New Living Translation:
I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
English Standard Version:
For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Worldwide English New Testament:
Some men have come in quietly. They are bad men. The holy writings told us long ago that they would be punished. These men change the blessing of our God to do the wrong things they want to do. They show by their lives that they do not belong to Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord
The Holman Christian Standard Bible:
For certain men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
New Century Version:
Some people have secretly entered your group. Long ago the prophets wrote about these people who will be judged guilty. They are against God and have changed the grace of our God into a reason for sexual sin. They also refuse to accept Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord.
Wesley's New Testament:
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed--men spoken of in ancient writings as pre-destined to this condemnation--ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into an excuse for immorality, and disown Jesus Christ, our only Sovereign and Lord.
The King James Version (as well as some other Translations) reads as follows:
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible:
The word God (Θεὸν Theon) is missing in many manuscripts, and in the Vulgate and Coptic versions, and Mill, Hammond, and Bengel suppose it should be omitted. It is also wanting in the editions of Tittman, Griesbach, and Hahn. The amount of authority seems to be against it.
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible:
Μονον Δεσποτην Θεον και Κυριον ἡμων Ιησουν Χριστον αρυουμενοι. These words may be translated, Denying the only sovereign God, even our Lord Jesus Christ. But Θεον (God), is omitted by ABC, sixteen others, with Erpens Arabic, the Coptic, Ethiopic, Armenian, and Vulgate, and by many of the fathers. It is very likely that it was originally inserted as a gloss, to ascertain to whom the title of τον μονον Δεσποτην, the only Sovereign, belonged; and thus make two persons where only one seems to be intended. The passage I believe belongs solely to Jesus Christ, and may be read thus: Denying the only sovereign Ruler, even our Lord Jesus Christ. The text is differently arranged in the Complutensian Polyglot, which contains the first edition of the Greek Testament: Και τον μονον Θεον και Δεσποτην, τον Κυριον ἡμων Ιησουν Χριστον αρνουμενοι· Denying the only God and Sovereign, our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a very remarkable position of the words, and doubtless existed in some of the MSS. from which these editors copied.
Jaimieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary:
The oldest manuscripts, versions, and Fathers omit "God," which follows in English Version. Translate as the Greek, "the only Master"; here used of Jesus Christ, who is at once Master and "Lord" (a different Greek word). See on 2Pe 2:1. By virtue of Christ's perfect oneness with the Father, He, as well as the Father, is termed "the ONLY" God and "MASTER." Greek, "Master," implies God's absolute ownership to dispose of His creatures as He likes.
Vincent's Word Studies:
God is omitted in the best texts.
The People's New Testament Commentary:
"Lord God" is not found in the best manuscript.
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Also, I thought I would post some Scriptures which forbid Christians from worshiping angels:
Colossians 2:18: Let no one rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind
Revelation 19:10: I fell down before his feet to worship him. He said to me, "Look! Don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy."
Revelation 22:8: Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
Revelation 22:9: He said to me, "Make sure that you don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the Prophets, and with those who keep the Words of this Book. Worship God."
But what does the Bible say about worshiping Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He brings in the Firstborn into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Revelation 5:8: Now when He had taken the Book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 5:9: They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the Book, And to open its seals: For You were killed, And bought us for God with Your Blood, Out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
Revelation 5:10: And made them kings and priests to our God, And they reign on Earth."
Revelation 5:11: I saw, and I heard something like a voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousands of ten thousands, and thousands of thousands;
Revelation 5:12: saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who has been killed to receive the power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing!"
Revelation 5:13: I heard every created thing which is in Heaven, on the Earth, under the Earth, on the sea, and everything in them, saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever! Amen!"
Revelation 5:14: The four living creatures said, "Amen!" The elders fell down and worshiped.
our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
"Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master".
Would the Bible say that a created angel is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"?
Undisfellowshipped,
The answer to Jude 1:4 is still the same. Of course. It is not Sovereign Ruler and Master but Sovereign Ruler or Master whichever you prefer. The use of the term God in this verse changes nothing. The problem is much the same as it is in 1 John 5:7 where many argue manuscripts and versions where it really makes no difference to the material under discussion which one is used. The problem is with the way you mix all this together in an attempt of force another conclusion on Jude 1:4. Would the Bible say (using Jude1:4 as a basis) that a created angel is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"? The only correct answer that can be given to is yes. The words God, Sovereign or Master actually can apply to a created angel. These terms can also apply to human beings. Another example of this use would be: 1 Timothy 6:2 And they that have believing masters <1203>, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. {faithful: or, believing} This is not a problem and how this God, Sovereign or Master actually came into existence is not being discussed by Jude. I responded to this as well.
But the question still stands. What is the non-human name of the Logos? Daniel 12:1-2 shows that it is Michael that stands up at the time of the resurrection. This connection with Michael, the book of life and Jesus is a simple one that not only answers this question but is not contradicted by any text you provided.
Joseph
But what does the Bible say about worshiping Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He brings in the Firstborn into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
Undisfellowshipped,
Many times on this forum the word worship has been analyzed and shown to properly apply to human beings but in context. So worship befitting a judge cannot be compared to worship befitting God simply because the same word is used in each case.
Now regarding the angels in Hebrews. You imply that literal angels (non-human beings) are being discussed when the discussion is about the prophets of old Hebrews 1:1 who will be raised at that time and in that capacity. In fact Hebrews chapter 1, 2 and 12 use the term angels to describe such human beings that have embraced the faith by spreading the message of truth and that will function as such in the kingdom helping the unrighteous to overcome their shortcomings. It is an endearing Jewish term for those in the faith and is used as such in Hebrews.
Joseph
You see, this has been my problem with the BLOTCHTOWER, not only did they re-translate a bible to fit their unqualified doctrines, profecies and all -failing dogmas, but they didn't even had the good sense to break down the heirarchies within the heavenly organization vs the "fallen ones"....While in dubdom I was often left with the impression of incompleteness in their explanations on jesus vs michael-archangel......I had to leave the dubs to do my own research....and there's a lot of things the Botchtower need to be teaching besides whether men should sport beards or not....an other petty BS like that......me thinks....rocky220
just out of curosity, thats, kurosity...lol. What is the meaning of the name "Micheal" You know how meanings are attached to names.
I don't recall where I read it but I read once in a book of names and there meanings the name "Micheal" means "!st"
Maybe the GB got it from a book of names at the grocerie store check out?
Plmkrzy,
According to the Hitchcock Bible name dictionary and my Scofield Bible, "Michael" means "who is like unto God?"
I still can't see how the title "only Sovereign Lord and Master" can apply to anyone but God Himself.
I still can't see how the title "only Sovereign Lord and Master" can apply to anyone but God Himself.
SwedishChef,
I provided a verse to show that it can. It is not Sovereigh Lord and Master but Sovereign or Master or God depending on the translation used.
Joseph
