Michael the Archangel (page 6)

JosephMalik

SwedishChef,

The text was explained both here and in my book. It is not complex. But if words like "all" do if for you regardless of context then fine? What you teach others is your responsibility not mine.

Joseph

UnDisfellowshipped

I'm just re-posting some comments that I don't believe JosephMalik ever responded to:

YAHWEH created the Earth and EVERYTHING IN IT:

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.

Psalm 146:5: Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in YAHWEH, his God:
Psalm 146:6: Who made Heaven and Earth, The sea, and all that is in them; Who keeps truth forever

Acts 4:24: ...they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, "O Sovereign Ruler, You are God, who made the Heaven, the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them

Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says YAHWEH, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am YAHWEH who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth by Myself

Now, here is a little illustration:

If I told you that "I mailed a letter to someone", but then actually, it was my secretary who mailed the letter for me, that might not be a lie (although it's getting close).

But, now what if I told you that "I mailed a letter to someone ALONE, ALL BY MYSELF", and then actually it was my secretary who mailed it, I would definitely be lying.

Another illustration:

It can be said that a Major League Baseball Pitcher "Wins a Game", but actually, he had help from the Fielders and the Batters.

If someone said that a Major League Baseball Pitcher "Won a Game ALONE, ALL BY HIMSELF", that would definitely be a lie.

My point?

When the Scriptures say "God created all things", then maybe, perhaps, possibly, God could have delegated certain parts of creation to angels.

But when Yahweh Himself declares "I CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE, BY MYSELF", Yahweh would by lying if He had delegated any part of creation to anyone else.

Can Yahweh lie?

Titus 1:2: In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began
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The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was YAHWEH:

Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.

The Apostle Paul quoted Psalm 102:12 and 102:25 [a prayer to YAHWEH] and applied it directly to Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Paul thus proclaimed that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, and that Jesus is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.

Mark 1:1: The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Mark 1:2: As it is written in the Prophets, "Behold, I send My messenger before your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.
Mark 1:3: The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord! [Yahweh in the Old Testament] Make His paths straight!'"
Mark 1:4: John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching the baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1:7: He preached, saying, "After me comes He who is Mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and loosen.
Mark 1:8: I baptized you in water, but He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."
Mark 1:9: It happened in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Who did John the Baptist prepare the way for?

Yahweh according to the Old Testament -- Jesus according to the New Testament!

Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament] will be saved."

1st Corinthians 1:2: to the congregation of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours

The Apostle Paul quoted a Verse that says "call on the Name of Yahweh" and applied it to Jesus Christ.

There are many more Scriptures in which Jesus Christ is shown to be Yahweh, but I think I have made my beliefs clear -- Jesus Christ's Pre-Human Name was YAHWEH.

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JosephMalik claimed that the "angels" mentioned in Hebrews Chapter 2 and Chapter 12 are human messengers.

So, in Hebrews 2:7, Jesus was "made a little lower" than human messengers?

Hebrews 2:7: You made Him a little lower than the angels; You crowned Him with glory and honor.

So, according to Hebrews 2:16, Jesus does not help human messengers?

Hebrews 2:16: For most assuredly, not to angels does He give help, but He gives help to the seed of Abraham.

In Hebrews 12:22-24, why are the "myriads of angels" mentioned separately from the Christian Congregation, and also separately from "the spirits of just men made perfect"?

Hebrews 12:22: But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the City of the Living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Hebrews 12:23: to the general congregation and congregation of the firstborn who are enrolled in Heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24: to Jesus, the Mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
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Now I will comment on some more of JosephMalik's comments:

Joseph said:

This is the position that Jesus now holds over mankind. Nothing here teaches that this Jesus was not called Michael at some time in the past.

To you it doesn't -- to me it does. Nothing here teaches that Jesus was called Michael in the past either.

Nothing here teaches that Jesus Christ is the Supreme Being.

I disagree, and nothing here teaches that Jesus Christ was not the Supreme Being.

What is does teach is that men have perverted such truth regarding our Savior and Redeemer that was placed in this position by the authority of God Himself to be such a Master, God and Lord over us (at least until the thousand years ends).

So, are you saying that after the 1,000 years Jesus will no longer be our Lord?

I would like to see where you got that in the Bible.

I'm sure you will respond with 1st Corinthians 15:24-28.

However, when Jesus "delivers up the Kingdom to God the Father", it must mean Jesus Christ "delivers up" His Mediatorial Kingdom (which will no longer be needed once everyone has been made sinless), or else it would contradict other Scriptures, which I will post below:

Luke 1:31: Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and will call His Name 'Jesus.'
Luke 1:32: He will be Great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David,
Luke 1:33: and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to His Kingdom."

Isaiah 9:7: Of the increase of His Government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.

Daniel 7:14: There was given Him dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

2nd Peter 1:11: For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

In fact Jesus can use many of the titles that also apply to the Supreme Being, yes, except for His Name. This Jesus cannot share.

Joseph, where does the Bible say that Jesus can take ANY title He wants, EXCEPT for the Supreme Being's Personal Name?

How much of this did God do personally and how much was delegated by Him? Just who were the us that assisted with such projects? Some scriptures provide such detail such as the ones in John chapter 1 and some do not. So can you show exactly who such participants were and their specific roles? Of course all credit goes to God or Yahweh. But we also know that the Logos actually did create man when he was with God and had authority over man. What better Being to select for mans redemption than this Logos that did such work in the beginning?

The Scriptures say that YAHWEH created the Earth and EVERYTHING in it (including humans) ALONE, BY HIMSELF!

The "Us" in Genesis Chapter 1 is obvious to me (because of reading the surrounding Verses, and other Verses of the Bible) -- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit who are all Three in Unity as YAHWEH.

But I suppose you are trying to claim that the "Us" in Genesis Chapter 1, includes several angels, even the angel who became SATAN!

The YHWH you refer to appears in Exodus 1:15 the very next verse as the proper name of God (not Jesus).

Well, I believe it was The Word speaking in Exodus 3:14-15 and I'll tell you why.

John 6:46: Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God. He has seen the Father.

John 5:37: The Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His Form.

No human has ever seen or heard the Father, however, the Bible says clearly that humans have seen and have heard God.

Therefore, I believe that, in the Old Testament, everywhere that it says humans saw or heard God, it was God the Son that they saw and heard, and thus, it was God the Son who spoke in Exodus 3:14-15.

John 14:9: Jesus said... He who has seen Me has seen the Father. ...

What difference does the definition make?

So now you're saying it doesn't matter what words mean?

That's a good one.

It us how the word is used that matters. The word God is used of the Supreme Being, but it is also used to describe the Kings of Israel. So the verse must be analyzed and the context determined before such decisions can be made.

So, that means I could call King David my ONLY [monos] God?

You keep pouring verses out without explanation. That may be helpful in some cases but mis-leading in others. I have demonstrated this to you many times.

PLEASE show me where I have done this in this Thread -- PLEASE! If I am not mistaken, I have explained why I posted each and every Scripture in this Thread. Please show me where I did differently and I will stand corrected.

But you are also obligated to forsake the trinity or this view of Michael if you cannot. And in the many threads on other things we have had where you could not you still keep saying the same things? Does this concept only work one way?

I have never seen you post any information that disproves the Trinity Doctrine.

You say that I have failed to prove the Trinity Doctrine. Well, I did fail to prove it to you, but I don't know if you would believe it if Jesus came down from Heaven and told you He was the Supreme Being.

Well for your information John identifies the Logos as the creator of man not God or Jesus. The human Jesus did not as yet exist when man came into existence did he?

What are you getting at? That the Logos (the Word) is a completely different Person than the Human Jesus Christ? The Bible clearly says that the Logos became Flesh [Jesus Christ], so I really don't know what you're getting at.

Also, you said that God is NOT the Creator of humans.

Oh boy, you just denied that the Supreme Being created humans.

Hebrews is not discussing planets and stars or things like that. It is only concerned with mankind and mostly those in the faith along with those on the outside. It is only concerned about the worlds that he redeems from sin. These are the all things under discussion. Notice:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The worlds of mankind under discussion in Hebrews. And an appointment was given to this Son which the Son did not always have. Contrast will be made of the Law Covenant and the New Covenant that replaced it. So you have no proof. It is your responsibility to show that the planets are involved if you insist on teaching this. Where is your proof? How does any of this prove that Jesus is not also Michael?

You commented on Hebrews 1:2, however, I specifically stated that Hebrews 1:10 is the Verse that describes the creation by the Logos (Word).

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 27 January 2003 1:37:47

UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph,

I just wanted to add that, I am definitely not trying to be mean, rude, or to make fun of you.

However, it is my duty as a Christian to tell the TRUTH about the Scriptures, and that is what I am trying to do.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and give you grace, love, and peace Joseph!

KGB

Very good work people lots of good info to be read by a dub for sure. Do you think if we could only get this kind of info in there thick brain washed heads that they would still be apart of that society? I certainly in a sound mind could`nt.

Realist

what a great thread.

this is like debating if Little Red Riding Hood became Cinderella after killing the wolf and moving to her bad step mother.

SwedishChef

SwedishChef,

The text was explained both here and in my book. It is not complex. But if words like "all" do if for you regardless of context then fine? What you teach others is your responsibility not mine.

Joseph,

A simple text like this needs not a large explanation. It speaks for itself and needs to be taken at face value. This text completely blows your theory away, and there is nothing you can do to avoid it.

Face it, Joseph, NO ONE after reading the Bible walks away with the interpretation you have. Preconceived ideas are governing your beliefs. You simply do not want to believe Jesus is God. Your views are completely foreign to the Bible and have no basis whatsoever. We have absolutely no reason to believe your views. No reason to believe "all" doesn't mean "all"; no reason to believe God delegated others to perform the act of creation; none at all! In fact, we have Scriptural evidence to prove quite the contrary.

How did you get this interpretation? It seems to me like your borrowing off of the WT.

UnDisfellowshipped provided some good references:

Psalm 146:5: Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in YAHWEH, his God:
Psalm 146:6: Who made Heaven and Earth, The sea, and all that is in them; Who keeps truth forever
Acts 4:24: ...they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, "O Sovereign Ruler, You are God, who made the Heaven, the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them"

God created everything. Yes, "all" does mean "all". The Bible gives me no reason to believe any different and every reason to believe this way. Joseph, I certainly hope that you take the Scriptures for what they say, and realize how truly wonderful the Lord Jesus Christ is. You have done Him a great wrong. You have classified Him as a lowly created angel. But He is infinitely greater than that. He is not the creature, He is the creator. Before He came to earth, He was not in the form of an angel, He was in the form of God! (Philippians 2:6)

Edited by - SwedishChef on 27 January 2003 16:28:37

JosephMalik

Face it, Joseph, NO ONE after reading the Bible walks away with the interpretation you have.

SwedishChef,

How do you know? Do you know everyone? Very few if any understood that our Lord spent 6 days in Roman custody before His execution. But that is also what the Bible always taught. Your argument proves nothing. I proved my point from scripture, you have not. Just quoting texts without end only proves that you know how to cut and paste.

Joseph

JosephMalik

Before He came to earth, He was not in the form of an angel, He was in the form of God! (Philippians 2:6)

SwedishChef,

Things like this demonstate what I am talking about. How do you know? Do you know the form of an angel and can you explain what that form is? What is the form of God anyway? Just how does the form of an angel differ from the form of God. Can it be that such angels are also in the form of God? Does this verse teach that they are not? Where is your proof? Such unsupported statements may play on the emotions of some but since you said them then it is your responsibility to provide proof?

Joseph

Edited by - JosephMalik on 28 January 2003 8:39:29

SwedishChef

JosephMalik,

As usual, your talking in circles, and ever so slyly avoiding the problems.

"How do you know? Do you know everyone?"

What I do know is that your views are completely foreign to the Bible. A lot of what you say is imagined in your head and therefore unique to yourself. It seems, though, that your views most closely match that of JWs.

"Can it be that such angels are also in the form of God?"
"Just how does the form of an angel differ from the form of God."

Please Joseph, ask a question that deserves a response.

"Such unsupported statements may play on the emotions of some but since you said them then it is your responsibility to provide proof?"

I see quoting direct passages from the Bible which plainly state what I am saying isn't enough. Good for you Joseph, you are beyond the Word of God.

"Just quoting texts without end only proves that you know how to cut and paste."
Just blowing off crystal clear texts that I cut and paste only proves your utter delusion.

I do believe something has been proven here, Joseph, and that is your inability to refute the texts I have quoted.

Edited by - SwedishChef on 28 January 2003 16:27:10

ChristianObserver

Hello PlmCrzy :o)

The name Michael is in the form of a rhetorical question which asks,"Who is like 'el?" There are other names which include the suffix 'el, such as Gabri-'el [warrior of 'el/man of 'el], Gamali-'el [reward of 'el] etc). 'El is invariably translated as *God* in the Old Testament, but occasionally as god, mighty, power - amongst others.

Note that the name Beth-'el is used by the WTBTS - house of 'el [God].

'El is the shortened form of the noun 'ayil.

The name of Y@howshuwa (Jesus), however, is derived from the tetragrammaton together with the Hebrew word for salvation giving the meaning of His name as *Yahweh is salvation*.

Michael the Archangel

Now I will comment on some more of JosephMalik's comments:

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