Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

SwedishChef

The Grammar of Gen 1:1,

The first verse of Genesis 1 is most interesting from the standpoint of grammar. The Hebrew language has three numbers, instead of two as in English. There is the singular, indicating one person, place or thing; then the dual, for two persons, places or things; and then the plural, for three or more persons, places or things.

In Genesis 1:1 all these forms appear. The first word, translated God, is Elohim, a plural noun, thus intimating that in some way God is more than one, and even more than two; that He is at least threefold.

But the verb, created, is singular. Thus we have at the very threshold of divine inspiration an intimation of the trinity and also the unity of God.
Edited by - SwedishChef on 25 January 2003 22:57:22
UnDisfellowshipped

SwedishChef,
You made a very good point by bringing up Isaiah 44:24!
Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth by Myself
Now, here is a little illustration:
If I told you that "I mailed a letter to someone", but then actually, it was my secretary who mailed the letter for me, that might not be a lie (although it's getting close).
But, now what if I told you that "I mailed a letter to someone ALONE, ALL BY MYSELF", and then actually it was my secretary who mailed it, I would definitely be lying.
Another illustration:
It can be said that a Major League Baseball Pitcher "Wins a Game", but actually, he had help from the Fielders and the Batters.
If someone said that a Major League Baseball Pitcher "Won a Game ALONE, ALL BY HIMSELF", that would definitely be a lie.
My point?
When the Scriptures say "God created all things", then maybe, perhaps, possibly, God could have delegated certain parts of creation to angels.
But when Yahweh Himself declares "I CREATED ALL THINGS ALONE, BY MYSELF", Yahweh would by lying if He had delegated any part of creation to anyone else.
Can Yahweh lie?
Titus 1:2: In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the world began
UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph,
You say that "Jesus can" call Himself "The Only Sovereign Ruler", and yet He is not the Supreme Being.
What does the Greek word for "only" [monos] mean?
Thayer Definition of "Monos":
1) Alone (without a companion), forsaken, destitute of help, alone, only, merely
So, that would mean that my ONLY Sovereign Ruler is Michael the chief angel, to the exclusion of the Supreme Being.
You said:
This is the very point of this discussion is it not? Tying in the identity of Michael with the Logos makes this easy to see. Deny such use and we see nothing. Little things like this make a difference. This connection must be denied since the Trinity doctrine is at stake. That is what is behind it all.
Joseph, it is THE TRUTH OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES that is at stake.
If any Doctrine is disproved by the Scriptures, by all means FORSAKE IT!
You said:
How much of this did God do personally and how much was delegated by Him? Just who were the us that assisted with such projects? Some scriptures provide such detail such as the ones in John chapter 1 and some do not. So can you show exactly who such participants were and their specific roles? Of course all credit goes to God or Yahweh. But we also know that the Logos actually did create man when he was with God and had authority over man. What better Being to select for mans redemption than this Logos that did such work in the beginning?
See SwedishChef's Post above, he explained it pretty well using the Scriptures. (also check out my illustrations above)
You said:
This is a lie and has always been a lie taught by Trinitarians. The name of God does not appear in Exodus 1:14 like they claim. The YHWH you refer to appears in Exodus 1:15 the very next verse as the proper name of God (not Jesus). The text in verse 14 where the I AM appears is an introduction and description for the name that followed in verse 15 and was never intended to be a name at all.
How do you know this?
Moses asked for God's Name, and God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM", and you shall tell them that "I AM" has sent you.
"I AM" means the same thing as "YAHWEH" -- Eternal Self-Existence, so how do you know they aren't BOTH Names of God?
Since we're getting so technical, I should have said that Jesus Christ's Pre-Human Name was Yahweh, and that His Pre-Human Descriptive Title was I AM.
I believe the Bible has a broader definition of the word "name" than you do, notice this Verse:
Isaiah 9:6: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the Government shall be on His shoulder: and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Notice that? According to the Bible, the following are NAMES of Jesus Christ: "Wonderful", "Counselor", "Mighty God", "Everlasting Father", and "Prince of Peace".
You said:
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
So? This is the very point I have been making all along. The creation of such large objects was done by God alone, but the little things like mankind that would live on this earth was delegated to the Logos to do this for Him. And others like the Being that became Satan were also involved in some way in all this.
WHOA! So now, SATAN helped CREATE THINGS? What Bible ARE you reading?
Where does the Bible say "Oh, those big things were created by God, but those little things, the angels created those!"??????
Please show me, I want to see where the Bible says anything like that.
Hebrews 1:10 is describing the CREATION BY JESUS CHRIST, so that would mean Jesus Christ created "the big things" too.
You said:
What has any of this to do with the identity of Michael?
You either didn't understand my points about Jesus Christ's Pre-Human Name being Yahweh, or you ignored them.
You said:
We went through the trinity doctrine several times on other threads so if you have nothing more on the identity of Michael then thats it.
Joseph, everything I have posted is in RESPONSE to questions and comments YOU MADE in this Thread.
First, you accused me of being "an ungodly person" and "misrepresenting Jude 1:4", then when I post information showing that I most certainly did not misrepresent the Scripture, I believe you said "So what".
Now, after I posted Scriptures showing that Jesus Christ's Pre-Human Name was Yahweh, in response to your question "What was Jesus Christ's Pre-Human Name?", you tell me "What has any of this to do with the identity of Michael?"
I'm not sure what else I can say about all this.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 26 January 2003 0:42:22
UnDisfellowshipped

I posted the following comments on another Thread, and I just thought I'd add them here:
Below are my personal beliefs about Jesus Christ, based on what I have read in the Scriptures, however, you should never ever believe what I say about the Scriptures, unless you closely examine the Scriptures, and make sure what is true, just like the Noble-Minded Beroeans:
I believe that Jesus Christ is God, but not the Father.
A husband is "the head" of the wife, but the husband does not have a better nature or essence than the wife, does he?
A husband is "greater" (in position) than his wife, but he is not "better" than his wife (in nature as a Human) is he?
I believe that the Father is "The Head" (in Position) of Jesus Christ (because Jesus willingly submits to the Father's Final Decision), but that Jesus Christ is Equal to the Father in His Nature and Essence.
Jesus Christ is my God (See John 20:28, John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Romans 9:5, Isaiah 9:6, Titus 2:13, 2nd Peter 1:1, Jude 1:4)
Jesus Christ is the Creator (See John 1:3, Hebrews 1:10, Colossians 1:16-17)
I pray to Jesus Christ (See 2nd Corinthians 12:8-10, Acts 7:59-60, 1st Corinthians 1:2)
I worship Jesus Christ (See Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:9-14)
JosephMalik

Joseph, you realize how little sense this makes? By simply saying "Jesus can, but it doesn't mean He's God" is no refutation.
SwedishChef,
The proof was given many times on this forum. "All authority has been given" and "I am the resurrection and the life? So why keep repeating it? I answered the question properly but some will never understand it seems.
Joseph
JosephMalik

You say that "Jesus can" call Himself "The Only Sovereign Ruler", and yet He is not the Supreme Being.
What does the Greek word for "only" [monos] mean?
Undisfellowshipped,
What difference does the definition make? It us how the word is used that matters. The word God is used of the Supreme Being, but it is also used to describe the Kings of Israel. So the verse must be analyzed and the context determined before such decisions can be made. You keep pouring verses out without explanation. That may be helpful in some cases but mis-leading in others. I have demonstrated this to you many times.
Joseph
JosephMalik

Joseph, it is THE TRUTH OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES that is at stake.
If any Doctrine is disproved by the Scriptures, by all means FORSAKE IT!
Undisfellowshipped,
You did not disprove it. This is your responsibility in this discussion. So when you do, then I will forsake it. But you are also obligated to forsake the trinity or this view of Michael if you cannot. And in the many threads on other things we have had where you could not you still keep saying the same things? Does this concept only work one way?
Joseph
JosephMalik

How do you know this?
Moses asked for God's Name, and God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM", and you shall tell them that "I AM" has sent you.
"I AM" means the same thing as "YAHWEH" -- Eternal Self-Existence, so how do you know they aren't BOTH Names of God?
Undisfellowshipped,
No it doesnt. It is a lie just as I stated. I have a lexicon as well. It was a long answer that was broken down by translators into two verses but God did not give His name until verse 15 where He specifically identifies it. Now answer this question. If the I AM is the proper name of God, how many times did God use it in the OT? Is Job God? Job used the I AM regarding himself also and it was also used in other places but they are not identified as uses for the name of God?
Joseph
JosephMalik

Where does the Bible say "Oh, those big things were created by God, but those little things, the angels created those!"??????
Undisfellowshipped,
I did this many times before and even asked the question; what part did the "us" have in the creation of man? You never answed but make fun of it. Well for your information John identifies the Logos as the creator of man not God or Jesus. The human Jesus did not as yet exist when man came into existence did he?
Joseph
JosephMalik

Hebrews 1:10 is describing the CREATION BY JESUS CHRIST, so that would mean Jesus Christ created "the big things" too.
Undisfellowshipped,
Hebrews is not discussing planets and stars or things like that. It is only concerned with mankind and mostly those in the faith along with those on the outside. It is only concerned about the worlds that he redeems from sin. These are the all things under discussion. Notice:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The worlds of mankind under discussion in Hebrews. And an appointment was given to this Son which the Son did not always have. Contrast will be made of the Law Covenant and the New Covenant that replaced it. So you have no proof. It is your responsibility to show that the planets are involved if you insist on teaching this. Where is your proof? How does any of this prove that Jesus is not also Michael?
Joseph

Michael the Archangel

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