Michael the Archangel (page 5)

JosephMalik

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" - Pretty clear to me!

SwedishChef,

I use this text to make this very point. The Son did not do any of this. Only the LORD (Yahweh) did and yahweh is not the name of the Son or the Logos. This is the very point of this discussion is it not? But things like human beings and animals are another matter. Who created them? Beings only identified as us in Genesis. The Logos created man and had authority over man. Such things were delegated to others. Does no one ever wonder why Satan took the form of a serpent? Could it not be that this Satan had something to do with the creation of such animal life and had authority over them as well?

Joseph

JosephMalik

In those Verses, why are angels mentioned separately from the Christian Congregation, and also separately from "the spirits of just men made perfect"?

Undisfellowshipped,

They are not mentioned separately. That is what you say since your theology is at stake. I have been over this many times before. Notice:

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Humans are under discussion here. Such messengers are being compared to the Human Son that will sit on David's throne. Such messengers like Abraham are as human as this Son that ministered for the faith. Just change the word "angels" to "messengers" and you have:

7 And of the messengers he saith, Who maketh his messengers spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Where is your proof undisfellowshipped? Will our Lord rule the kingdom with non-human beings or will He rule with the 12 apostles and others chosen by Him?

Joseph

SwedishChef

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" - Pretty clear to me!

SwedishChef,

I use this text to make this very point. The Son did not do any of this. Only the LORD (Yahweh) did and yahweh is not the name of the Son or the Logos. This is the very point of this discussion is it not? But things like human beings and animals are another matter. Who created them? Beings only identified as us in Genesis. The Logos created man and had authority over man. Such things were delegated to others. Does no one ever wonder why Satan took the form of a serpent? Could it not be that this Satan had something to do with the creation of such animal life and had authority over them as well?

Joseph

I'm still trying to figure out where the refutation lies in this paragraph. There is none. Is. 44:24 is extremely clear as to whom created EVERYTHING. If you refuse to read what it plainly says, then we might as well not discuss Scripture anymore. (The "us" in Genesis has already been addressed as well.) I'm sorry, but such misrepresentation of Scripture can only come from delusion. You WANT to hold to your views no matter how unbiblical they are.

gumby

Here is an EX-dub site that discusses this too. http://www.letusreason.org/JW22.htm

siegswife

To those who believe Jesus is/was Michael.

From what I've come to understand is that the Word of God, His Logos, is when He said "I AM". That is the meaning of His Name. "I AM". Jesus is the Word "I AM".

I had trouble with the uncreated part of the trinity because "a word" by definition, is something created. What I've come to realize is that the Word of God is uncreated because it is the Truth of God saying "I AM". God IS, so the Word that expresses that Truth IS as well. The meaning is eternal, therefore the Word that expresses it is eternal.

That's why it's said that the Word is "the perfect representation of God" and the "perfect image of the invisible God". It's also why the Word is the firstborn of creation. Until God spoke, there was nothing or no one else. The Word "I AM", Jesus before his life as a human is the source of all things created.

Michaels name means "Who is like God?". A question. Jesus' name means "The Salvation of God". From other texts in the Bible we're told that only by calling on God's Name can we be saved. Michael is created. The Word, on the other hand, is the expression of the eternal Truth of the "Being" of God. Jesus is the Word of God. His Name.

That's why it isn't contradictory to say that the name of Jesus is the name we need to call on. He IS the Word of God.

Lea

JosephMalik

SwedishChef,

Some verses provide more deail than others. Some look at the overall picture and some deal with specifics. This is what you cannot see. Mixing them all together does not work.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Is this world plants, animals, dirt and rock or is this the world of man. Can dirt and rock know him? But this is something you cannot see.

Joseph

SwedishChef

Joseph,

I emphasize the phrases "alone" and "by myself" Jehovah used when speaking of His role in creation. He did it all by Himself, no one was with Him. Is 44:24 is a very simple verse which you twist to make it say something different. And your not doing a very good job at it at that.

John 1:3 "All things were made by him [Jesus]; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Only talking about kingdoms and people? Yeah right! You must think I can't read.)

Now what can't I see about this passage, Joseph? What secret am I blinded to that only you can see? This passage clearly says there is nothing that was not made by Jesus Christ. Period! But what can you do with a verse like this? You have to twist it to make it say something different. So you think Jesus is only "in charge" of people and kingdoms?

Isaiah 37:16 "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth."

Nope, your hypothesis doesn't add up. Jehovah, and only Jehovah, is in charge of kingdoms. Proof that the Messiah is, in fact, Jehovah.

UnDisfellowshipped

Joseph,

I have posted A LOT of information in this Thread. You have not even replied to about half of it.

I don't think it would matter what I posted, you'd still believe what you believe.

And that's fine, if that's what you believe the Bible is saying, then that's fine.

When I said "By all means forsake it" I clearly said "If the Bible disproves ANY Doctrine, by all means FORSAKE IT". That means ANY Doctrine, Trinity Doctrine included -- but so far, none of the Scriptures you have posted come anywhere close to disproving the Trinity Doctrine.

You never even responded to my comments about the "angels" in Hebrews Chapter 2 and Chapter 12 (which you specifically claimed were humans).

You also never responded to my illustrations.

I will try to respond to your other comments as soon as I can.

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 26 January 2003 22:26:2

SwedishChef

Joseph,

Please give a satisfactory explanation of Is 44:24. You have not so far. Gee, I would even go as far to say you've been avoiding it.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

2 Things Jehovah is saying in this text:

1. No one was with Him during creation. For the Lord to mean anything other than this He would be a liar.

2. He made ALL things.

JosephMalik

Undisfellowshipped,

I posted all that was necessary to show that Michael is the non-human name for the Logos that became Jesus. Nothing you said could refute this information so this task was accomplished. And I can say the same thing about you, since you avoided commenting on much of what I offered.

Joseph

Michael the Archangel

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