Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

SwedishChef

Joseph,

I emphasize the word "only" in this verse, meaning that Jesus Christ is the oneand only Lord. Who can carry this title but God?
UnDisfellowshipped

I emphasize the word "only" in this verse, meaning that Jesus Christ is the one and only Lord. Who can carry this title but God?

My thoughts exactly SwedishChef.
JosephMalik said:
It is not Sovereigh Lord and Master but Sovereign or Master or God depending on the translation used.
Is that so?
According to my research, this is how the oldest Greek text reads:
"our only [despotēs] and [kurios] Jesus Christ"
What does "despotēs" mean?
Strong's Definition:
An absolute ruler (despot): - Lord, master.
What does "kurios" mean?
Strong's Definition:
Supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.
So, according to my research, the oldest Greek text of Jude 1:4, reads like this:
"our only Absolute Ruler and Lord Jesus Christ"
And it could also read:
"our only Sovereign Ruler and Master Jesus Christ"
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 24 January 2003 23:15:3
UnDisfellowshipped

JosephMalik said:
Simple, because such authority [to rebuke Satan] was not granted the WORD until He became flesh, when the words out of heaven were spoken that said: Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan. Now this was all to change and authority would be given so that Jesus could NOW say: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Interesting. I have yet to see where it says in Luke 9:35 that the Father gave any extra authority to Jesus at that time.
The Pre-Human Word was in the "Bosom of the Father" and He existed in the Very Form or Nature of God -- somehow I can't see how the Word would not have had the authority to rebuke a wicked evil fallen angel, especially considering my beliefs below.
Also, since you deny that Jesus Christ created all things, your beliefs differ from mine.
I believe, based on the Scriptures, that Jesus Christ created ALL THINGS, including Satan and the demons (of course, they were perfect angels when they were created).
So, my belief is that obviously, the Creator [Jesus Christ] of Satan would have the ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY to rebuke him.
JosephMalik said:
But the truth is no one know how the WORD came into existence nor does anyone understand the nature of such non-human beings. None of this is described in scripture.
Hmmm, no where in Scripture does it describe how all things came into existence?
Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.
Psalm 146:5: Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Yahweh, his God:
Psalm 146:6: Who made Heaven and Earth, The sea, and all that is in them; Who keeps truth forever
Acts 4:24: ...they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, "O Sovereign Ruler, You are God, who made the Heaven, the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them
So, according to Scripture, you have 2 options on what to believe about how Jesus Christ/The Word came into existence:
1: The Father created The Word.
2: The Word has always existed because The Word is God.
I personally choose option number 2.
JosephMalik said:
What is the non-human name of Jesus? The Word? No, the Word is a title and function for our creator not a name. Since we know the human name of this Word is Jesus. What then is His non-human name apart from His title and function? Michael?
Good question. I have the Scriptural answer:
The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was:
YHWH | YAHWEH | I AM WHO I AM | YAH | I AM
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
The Apostle Paul quoted Psalm 102:12 and 102:25 [a prayer to YAHWEH] and applied it directly to Jesus Christ.
The Apostle Paul thus proclaimed that Jesus Christ is Yahweh, and that Jesus is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth.
Mark 1:1: The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
Mark 1:2: As it is written in the Prophets, "Behold, I send My messenger before your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.
Mark 1:3: The voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Make ready the way of the Lord! [Yahweh in the Old Testament] Make His paths straight!'"
Mark 1:4: John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching the baptism of repentance for forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:7: He preached, saying, "After me comes He who is Mightier than I, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and loosen.
Mark 1:8: I baptized you in water, but He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."
Mark 1:9: It happened in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Who did John the Baptist prepare the way for?
Yahweh according to the Old Testament -- Jesus according to the New Testament!
Romans 10:9: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10: For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament] will be saved."
1st Corinthians 1:2: to the congregation of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours
The Apostle Paul quoted a Verse that says "call on the Name of Yahweh" and applied it to Jesus Christ.
There are many more Scriptures in which Jesus Christ is shown to be Yahweh, but I think I have made my point clear -- Jesus Christ's Pre-Human Name was YAHWEH.
JosephMalik said:
You did not represent the text [of Jude 1:4] correctly and I was being nice about it since it is specific enough to condemn your views over which we have had lengthy discussions. The verse you used is:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now you are the one by your own admission that said: Jesus Christ is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master". Did I miss that part of the verse or are you one of the certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness?
It appears that you implied that I was one of the "ungodly men who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness".
That is okay. You can call me whatever you want. I'm not going to get upset.
The problem is with the way you mix all this together in an attempt of force another conclusion on Jude 1:4. Would the Bible say (using Jude1:4 as a basis) that a created angel is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"? The only correct answer that can be given to is yes. The words God, Sovereign or Master actually can apply to a created angel.
I was never contesting the fact that "god" "angel" "master" "lord" or "sovereign" could be applied to a created angel.
I was contesting that a created angel can be called my ONLY Sovereign Ruler and Master [Lord].
Because, if a created angel is my ONLY Sovereign Ruler and Master, then that means God the Supreme Being is NOT my True Sovereign Ruler or Master!
JosephMalik said:
Daniel 12:1-2 shows that it is Michael that stands up at the time of the resurrection. This connection with Michael, the book of life and Jesus is a simple one that not only answers this question but is not contradicted by any text you provided.
Michael will stand up at that time, yes, I agree. But does it say what Michael will do at that time? Does that Verse state that Michael will be the one resurrecting people? No.
Jesus Christ has tasks for His angels to do, so I am sure all of the angels will be "standing up" getting ready to do their tasks, so obviously, the Chief Angel would be "standing up" and ready to accomplish his tasks to help God's people.
JosephMalik said:
Now regarding the angels in Hebrews. You imply that literal angels (non-human beings) are being discussed when the discussion is about the prophets of old Hebrews 1:1 who will be raised at that time and in that capacity. In fact Hebrews chapter 1, 2 and 12 use the term angels to describe such human beings that have embraced the faith by spreading the message of truth and that will function as such in the kingdom helping the unrighteous to overcome their shortcomings. It is an endearing Jewish term for those in the faith and is used as such in Hebrews.
So, in Hebrews 2:7, Jesus was "made a little inferior" to humans?
Hebrews 2:16: For most assuredly, not to angels does He give help, but He gives help to the seed of Abraham.
So, Jesus does not help human angels?
Hebrews 12:22: But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the City of the Living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Hebrews 12:23: to the general congregation and congregation of the firstborn who are enrolled in Heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hebrews 12:24: to Jesus, the Mediator of a New Covenant, and to the Blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
In those Verses, why are angels mentioned separately from the Christian Congregation, and also separately from "the spirits of just men made perfect"?
JosephMalik

I emphasize the word "only" in this verse, meaning that Jesus Christ is the oneand only Lord. Who can carry this title but God?
SwedishChef,
Jesus can. And Jesus is not the Supreme Being. In fact Jesus can use many of the titles that also apply to the Supreme Being, yes, except for His Name. This Jesus cannot share.
Joseph
JosephMalik

It is not Sovereigh Lord and Master but Sovereign or Master or God depending on the translation used.
Is that so?
According to my research, this is how the oldest Greek text reads:
"our only [despotēs] and [kurios] Jesus Christ"
Undisfellowshipped,
Despotes can be translated Lord, or it can be translated Master just as kurios can be translated Lord or Master or even Sir. So what? We use one or the other for each word not both. In texts that also use the word theos like the KJV the result then comes out like this.
(YLT) 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and LordJesus Christdenying,
This is the position that Jesus now holds over mankind. Nothing here teaches that this Jesus was not called Michael at some time in the past. Nothing here teaches that Jesus Christ is the Supreme Being. What is does teach is that men have perverted such truth regarding our Savior and Redeemer that was placed in this position by the authority of God Himself to be such a Master, God and Lord over us (at least until the thousand years ends).
Joseph
JosephMalik

JosephMalik said:
Simple, because such authority [to rebuke Satan] was not granted the WORD until He became flesh, when the words out of heaven were spoken that said: Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan. Now this was all to change and authority would be given so that Jesus could NOW say: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Interesting. I have yet to see where it says in Luke 9:35 that the Father gave any extra authority to Jesus at that time. The Pre-Human Word was in the "Bosom of the Father" and He existed in the Very Form or Nature of God -- somehow I can't see how the Word would not have had the authority to rebuke a wicked evil fallen angel, especially considering my beliefs below.
Undisfellowshipped,
This is the very point of this discussion is it not? Tying in the identity of Michael with the Logos makes this easy to see. Deny such use and we see nothing. Little things like this make a difference. This connection must be denied since the Trinity doctrine is at stake. That is what is behind it all.
JosephMalik said:
But the truth is no one know how the WORD came into existence nor does anyone understand the nature of such non-human beings. None of this is described in scripture.
Undisfellowshipped comments: Hmmm, no where in Scripture does it describe how all things came into existence?
Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth.
Psalm 146:5: Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help, Whose hope is in Yahweh, his God:
Psalm 146:6: Who made Heaven and Earth, The sea, and all that is in them; Who keeps truth forever
Acts 4:24: ...they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, "O Sovereign Ruler, You are God, who made the Heaven, the Earth, the sea, and all that is in them
So, according to Scripture, you have 2 options on what to believe about how Jesus Christ/The Word came into existence:
Malik responds: How much of this did God do personally and how much was delegated by Him? Just who were the us that assisted with such projects? Some scriptures provide such detail such as the ones in John chapter 1 and some do not. So can you show exactly who such participants were and their specific roles? Of course all credit goes to God or Yahweh. But we also know that the Logos actually did create man when he was with God and had authority over man. What better Being to select for mans redemption than this Logos that did such work in the beginning?
JosephMalik said:
What is the non-human name of Jesus? The Word? No, the Word is a title and function for our creator not a name. Since we know the human name of this Word is Jesus. What then is His non-human name apart from His title and function? Michael?
Undisfellowshipped said: Good question. I have the Scriptural answer:
The Pre-Human Name of Jesus Christ was:
YHWH | YAHWEH | I AM WHO I AM | YAH | I AM
This is a lie and has always been a lie taught by Trinitarians. The name of God does not appear in Exodus 1:14 like they claim. The YHWH you refer to appears in Exodus 1:15 the very next verse as the proper name of God (not Jesus). The text in verse 14 where the I AM appears is an introduction and description for the name that followed in verse 15 and was never intended to be a name at all.
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
So? This is the very point I have been making all along. The creation of such large objects was done by God alone, but the little things like mankind that would live on this earth was delegated to the Logos to do this for Him. And others like the Being that became Satan were also involved in some way in all this. What has any of this to do with the identity of Michael?
We went through the trinity doctrine several times on other threads so if you have nothing more on the identity of Michael then thats it.
Joseph
edp81

Joseph,
It is quite obvious to see that you really don't know what you are talking about. In Exodus 3:13, Moses asks God what His name is. God responds that His name is I AM THAT I AM. He tells Moses to tell the children of Israel that I AM had sent Moses to them.
Also,
You are right in your assumption that God the Father did not do all the work of Creation by Himself. Check out Genesis 1:26, 27. "Let us make man in our own image." "So God created man in His own image." How do you account for this?
Also,
Where do you ever find the term God applied to a "created angel"? You have failed to provide Scripture as proof for your arguments. In fact, you have failed to produce any evidence for your arguments.
You cannot find any verse in Scripture to substantiate your hypothesis that the word "angels" in Hebrews 1, 2, & 12 refers to humans. This is just simple not true. Check out Psalm 8:4,5. The psalmist is talking about man when he says, "You have made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honor." Also in Hebrews 2:7, we see that man is set over the "works of Your hands" (i.e., the rest of creation).
In essence, to say that there are people who become angels is to say that these people become a different creature. They are no longer a member of the human race. Would that not be "incarnation"?
Undisfellowshipped,
A verse that you may be interested in is John 8:58. Here, Jesus clearly identifies Himself as being one with the I AM of the Old Testament. Jesus is God. Jesus is not Michael the archangel. Or Gabriel. Or whoever else someone may try to make Him into. He always has been, is, and always will be GOD.
JosephMalik

It is quite obvious to see that you really don't know what you are talking about. In Exodus 3:13, Moses asks God what His name is. God responds that His name is I AM THAT I AM. He tells Moses to tell the children of Israel that I AM had sent Moses to them.
edp81
Any person that can read should know that the name of God is not given in verse 14. The name of God was introduced in verse 14 but not given until the next verse where it says:
:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
This LORD when it appears in all capitals is: hwhy Y@hovah yeh-ho-vaw. This is the name of God. The I am in verse 14 is simply: hyh hayah haw-yaw which means to be like to be or not to be, that is the question. It is a Hebrew Idiom that introduces this name which would now be proven to Moses by many signs and wonders.
Anyway I did get a good laugh out of your remarks.
Joseph
SwedishChef

I emphasize the word "only" in this verse, meaning that Jesus Christ is the oneand only Lord. Who can carry this title but God?
SwedishChef,
Jesus can. And Jesus is not the Supreme Being. In fact Jesus can use many of the titles that also apply to the Supreme Being, yes, except for His Name. This Jesus cannot share.
Joseph

Joseph, you realize how little sense this makes? By simply saying "Jesus can, but it doesn't mean He's God" is no refutation. The Scriptures offer no support for your interpretation, in fact, quite the contrary is true. The Bible says God never changes, and one of those things that never changes is His character. I suggest you read the Old Testament very carefully to truly realize the holiness and character of God. For in Is. 42:8 Jehovah says "My glory will I not give to another." And from what I read in the New Testament, this never changing God gives His glory to the Word, who, according to John 1:1, was God!
Now I know your going to explain this away be saying "He was speaking of idols", and that is true. (Anything you consider god except God Himself is an idol.) But the character of God does not change, and when He says "My glory will I not give to another" - He means it!

Exodus 34:14 "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:"

I strongly suggest that you admit to yourself the deity of Christ, who is the Savior and Lord of all. And stop trying to confuse the simple teachings in the Bible. The Word of God says that Jesus is God. It is stated simply. We may not understand how this is (1 Timothy 3:16), Paul calls it a mystery. But we can know it is true.
Edited by - SwedishChef on 25 January 2003 23:31:19
SwedishChef

"Malik responds: How much of this did God do personally and how much was delegated by Him? Just who were the us that assisted with such projects?"

Joseph, very simple question! God alone created the universe.

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" - Pretty clear to me!

Do you really think the great I AM needed any assistance in creating the universe? What Bible are [or aren't] you reading?!

Michael the Archangel

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