Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  To anyone who believes that the Son will no longer be King or Lord after the 1,000 Years, how do you explain the following Verses:

  Luke 1:31: Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and will call His Name 'Jesus.'
  Luke 1:32: He will be Great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David,
  Luke 1:33: and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to His Kingdom."

  Isaiah 9:7: Of the increase of His Government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.

  Daniel 7:14: There was given Him dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

  2nd Peter 1:11: For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

  Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.

  I would love to hear your explanation of these Verses.
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  Will Power

  Haven't finished reading this thread but this caught my eye.

  Little Toe said:

  It seems to me that the only scriptural support for Jesus being Michael is found in 1Thess.4:16 alone. Yes he is spoken of having more than just an archangel's voice.
  What do you make of that verse, Joseph?

  Joseph agreed.

  If you re-read the 1 Thes 4:16 from the WT CD Rom you will find an asterisk after the word Lord* who descends with the call of the archangel.

  The footnote states this Lord is Jehovah.

  In other words, if the watchtower has taught you anything, you better start over.

  ( I always pictured Jesus descending and the archangel announcing it - with his archangel voice )

  The WT has no clue "who is coming" (See their history of Rev 22:12 interpretations) with whose voice, or who Jesus is/was or will be (destroyed as a "false" god if you believe Jeremiah 10 & NWT John 1:1) or even who or what Jehovah is for that matter. They constantly mix them up. Thats why they throw in that "active force" every so often - spirit directed, spirit appointed, yada yada yada - sure is a busy force. Depends on who is the WT president at the time. Now thats truth you can take to the bank!

  Sometimes the WT is so trinitarian you just have to howl!

  Will
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph said:
  

  It is not my responsibility to apply any text anyone throws out there. This is not wrong on my part.

  You're right, it is not your responsibility, UNLESS you are a Christian.

  Have you responded to people's questions like the Bible says True Christians are supposed to respond?

  Read below:

  1st Peter 3:15: But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear

  Joseph, are you ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you questions about your beliefs (with humility), such as the questions I posted a few pages back?

  Colossians 4:6: Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

  Joseph, has your speech been "seasoned with salt" or with grace?

  2nd Timothy 2:24: The Lord's servant must not fight, but be gentle towards all, able to teach, patient,
  2nd Timothy 2:25: in gentleness correcting those who oppose him: perhaps God may give them repentance leading to a full knowledge of the truth,

  Joseph, have you been "gentle" in your discussion with me? Have you "corrected me in gentleness"?

  Acts 17:2: Paul, as was his custom, went in to them, and for three Sabbath days reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
  Acts 17:3: explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."

  Joseph, have you been explaining and demonstrating your beliefs after I asked those questions above?

  Jude 1:9: Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you."

  Joseph, have you been "bringing railing accusations" against me and others?

  I have heard from at least 4 other people who say that you have been accusing them of various things also.

  Isaiah 1:18: "Come now, and let us reason together," says Yahweh....

  Yahweh Himself was willing to reason with humans, Joseph, are you willing to reason with me in order to clearly explain your beliefs?

  Acts 17:10: The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea. When they arrived, they went into the Jewish synagogue.
  Acts 17:11: Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

  Joseph, what would the Beroeans have thought about the way you ignore people's questions?

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 11 February 2003 1:55:0
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Joseph said:
  

  You quoted what I said as if it is a blanket statement to tell everyone exactly what I teach.

  That is flat out wrong, Joseph.

  I clearly said that I was posting a Summary of this Thread, and then I posted word-for-word your slanderous accusations and SOME of your statements about your beliefs.

  What does the word "Summary" mean? According to Webster's Dictionary, it means "Abridgment".

  What does "Abridgment" mean? -- "a shortened form of a work retaining the general sense and unity of the original"

  If I were to post ALL of your beliefs, it would take several Pages.

  I only quoted your statements that I have found absolutely ZERO support for in the Scriptures.

  You said:
  

  You are wrong and are deceiving them. The context of the discussion is completely lost when you pull statements out like this. This is the way Trinitarians twist the meaning of texts and discussions and I want everyone to see this.

  Here is the exact quote which I posted, which you are accusing me of "deceiving people" with:

  As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan.

  Do you, or do you not believe that?

  That quote clearly says "our Lord HAD authority", past tense, which would let people know that you were talking about the past, so I don't know what you are complaining about.

  It is such a shame that you feel that you must accuse me of being a liar and a deceiver in each one of your last several posts, and not only that, you make the gigantic blanket statement, which is actually slanderous, by saying that "this is the way Trinitarians twist the Scriptures".

  How do you know that all Trinitarians twist Scripture?

  Just exactly how many Trinitarians have you actually spoken with Joseph?

  That is probably the lowest and lamest statement you have made, accusing ALL Trinitarians of "twisting the Scriptures".

  That is the same as if I were to accuse ALL non-Trinitarians of twisting the Scriptures BECAUSE the Jehovah's Witnesses twist the Scriptures!

  Joseph said:
  

  Our Lord did not have authority over Satan, and this must also be understood based on the texts being responded to at the time which were taken from OT texts regarding Michael. Such authority was given later. You failed to mention that so that what I teach was completely distorted by you.

  As I explained above, I was not intending to post ALL of your beliefs -- that would have taken a LONG TIME and several pages worth of quotes.

  I simply posted the beliefs of yours, which I see absolutely NO support for in the Bible.

  However, Joseph, if I did, in any way whatsoever, mis-represent any of your beliefs, I truly do apologize, and it was most definitely not intentional.

  Joseph said:
  

  Colossians does not prove your point either since it only deals with human beings not spirit creatures such as Satan. What you claim was bad, and an error was really a truth.

  Joseph, I have no idea how you came up with that.

  Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.

  So, Joseph, are you saying that the Logos created human beings "IN THE HEAVENS"?

  Joseph said:
  

  Our Lord did not have authority over Satan, and this must also be understood based on the texts being responded to at the time which were taken from OT texts regarding Michael. Such authority was given later.

  Colossians [1:16] does not prove your point either since it only deals with human beings not spirit creatures such as Satan. What you claim was bad, and an error was really a truth.

  You will ignore this request also, but I would like to hear you actually explain your beliefs on the following Verse:

  Ephesians 3:9: and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ

  That Verse clearly states that the Father created ALL THINGS THROUGH Jesus Christ. However, I am sure that you will somehow claim that "All Things" does not include angels, just like you claimed with Colossians 1:16, even though Colossians 1:16 clearly states that Jesus created all things "in the Heavens".

  Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 11 February 2003 3:8:31
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Hi Will Power!

  You are very correct!

  I just checked the Watchtower Library CD-ROM, and here is some very interesting info:

  "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with References"

  1st Thessalonians 4:15: For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord [Footnote says this "Lord" is Jesus] shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death];
  1st Thessalonians 4:16: because the Lord [Footnote says this "Lord" is Jehovah] himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
  1st Thessalonians 4:17: Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord [Footnote says this "Lord" is Jehovah] in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord [Footnote says this "Lord" is Jehovah].
  1st Thessalonians 4:18: Consequently keep comforting one another with these words

  This is very helpful information to use when talking to Jehovah's Witnesses!!

  According to Watchtower Teachings, this must mean that JEHOVAH is the ARCHANGEL!

  Thank You Very Much for pointing it out Will Power!

  Do you know of any other instances like this on the CD-ROM?
• 

  JosephMalik

  Will Power,

  All this has been covered in this thread. Makes no difference what the footnote says. The texts does not say it does it? Our Lord does not act on His own but takes His instructions and authority from His Father. The situation is very much like the angel in the burning bush. This angel said it was God and yet we know it was not. However it was authorized to act as God and function the same as if it was actually Jehovah. Our Lord functions the same way. After all He said:

  John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
  John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
  John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

  And there are many more. So all this word matching and all this excitement over a text where you say; see here what this word really stands for demonstrates to me that no one is really trying to understand scripture. They just want to support their Trinitarian ideas any way they can.

  Joseph
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  Will Power

  Hi Unde

  There are others - One esp.

  But first...... are you humble enough to accept the truth?

  *** it22 393-4 Michael ***

  (Michael) [Who is Like God?].............. Would love to hear your comments on the 4th paragraph esp regarding passages cited & others THAT ARE NOT

  Next... *** it-1-80-1 Alpha and Omega ***

  supposedly lists ALL occurances of this phrase - (love the intro) pay particular attention to the verse omitted

  Rev 1:17-18 on this they have no comment except that in this instance first and last means something other than alpha (first) or omega (last) - damn greeks

  Also, the reason they had to reprint their NWT was to get rid of all the footnotes at the bottom. There were so many that called Jesus the almighty & Jehovah. Not that old either! I'll dig them out. Hurray! new light! Funny how all this existed when they were "inspected"

  Some will defend this with the J(2) argument- (notes for Later Hebrew translations) which is just back pedalling since they use this same argument to back up their insertion of the word Jehovah in the New Testament where the word Lord (Kyrios) is talking about Jesus.

  Joe:

  these texts only cement the fact that the WT is a flavor of the month printing company disguised as a religion with no credibility in their "tacking" interpretations. Anyone with WT theology as a base trying to truly understand scripture is severely handicapped. I'm not saying YOU are one who is/was a JW because I do not know, but there are others here who do fall into this catagory. Interpretation aside, when one finally sees the outright deception and malicious manipulation, put out by this printing company under the pretense of truth, makes one think hmmmmm maybe there really is such a thing as SATAN.

  True scholars of WT literature/theology would have to agree that on paper they are as trinitarian as those they despise.

  Regards, Will
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  LittleToe

  I've got very little time, due to pressures of work, and a forthcoming vacation, however:

  Will:
  The Lord in Rev. is one reason that I feel that Zech.9 may be relevant.
  Nice post, btw.

  Joe:
  I believe that the connection was fairly obvious. Seeing as you don't really want to debate, so be it...

  UnDF & Plm:
  Love you guys
• 

  Will Power

  One thing that I can't seem to get straight is .... (according to Jesus = Michael theory)

  If...

  Jesus was Michael, an angel, before he became flesh, the creator of "most" things, not to be worshipped because he is an angel, can't rebuke satan....

  then Jesus, the word, a god, a mighty god, ETERNAL FATHER (Is 9:6), emanual - god with us, unique "son of God" , can & does rebuke satan, etc while on earth

  then he changes back into Michael the angel, trumpet blower, for the big A, can't rebuke (or was he Michael when risen as the spirit "creature")

  then there are the other characters, the lamb, the one seated on the throne, the one who judges, the one who is king of the abyss - (the abaddon - so says the WT), etc, etc.

  and going with the one true god theory, who alone created by himself.....by deduction, all others are untrue gods

  Now according to Jeremiah 10:11 Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens"

  Is 45:21...An there is no other god besides me, a righteous god and a saviour; there is none except me...22. Turn to ME and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I AM God, and there is no other 23 I have sworn by Myself, the WORD has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and WILL NOT turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.......

  Phil 2:10 the name which is above every name, so that at the name of JESUS every knee will bow of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory to God the Father.

  HEBREWS 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9. Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by FOOLS, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

  If people can't believe the concept of the trinity - different but same thang, how in the hell can they justify the Angel Michael Jesus Michael Angel theory?

  Regards, Will
• 

  SwedishChef

  SwedishChef,
  Is this the best you can do? Anyone can read my posts and see it is the other way around. trinitarians always resort to tactics such as yours when they lose such discussions. I see you are no different. The trinity doctrine is a lie. God is a single Being with only ONE name. The Son is another Being entirely with two names one of which is Michael. This is what this discussion is all about and this is the discussion trinitarians lost.
  Joseph
  
  No Joseph, the best I have is Scripture, but that has had little effect on your beliefs. I have done nothing but back my beliefs with the Bible, and it has proved to be futile with you. I was more the less making a closing statement to end my participation in this discussion, but you have not hesitated to say that I have "resorted" to using these "tactics" because I "know I've lost". I believe this thread speaks for itself, and your views scream "unbiblical!"
  
  Joseph, if youve read earlier posts you would know that I believe when the Bible refers to Michael it is referring to Jesus Christ. Again, you classify all Trinitarians together under one umbrella.
  
  "This is the way Trinitarians twist the meaning of texts and discussions and I want everyone to see this."
  
  I would like everyone to see the way you apply ALL Trinitarians to Undiss statement. You really enjoy stereotyping.
  
  Joseph,
  You never did refute Zechariah 12:10:
  SwedishChef,
  All this has been covered and it has been shown how YHWH can be represented personally by others. So scriptures especially prophetic ones can be fulfilled by such representatives.
  
  Joseph, your ignoring that fact that Jehovah is the speaker in this passage. By what authority do you say that it was not really Jehovah speaking?
  
  The situation is very much like the angel in the burning bush. This angel said it was God and yet we know it was not. However it was authorized to act as God and function the same as if it was actually Jehovah. Our Lord functions the same way.
  
  Oh really, Joseph, we know it was not God? And why is that? Because you say so? The angel in the burning bush was indeed God manifesting Himself to Moses. No creature has the authority to call itself "I AM" and "Jehovah God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" - and no creature has. We have every reason to believe that what appeared to Moses was God Himself.

  Edited by - SwedishChef on 11 February 2003 20:35:36