The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk
herk
herk

Even a child can tell whether a Trinitarian (like a Baptist) or a non-Trinitarian (like a Jehovah's Witness) is really allowing the Bible to speak for itself. Both sides have their biases, and rather than listen to either side, we ought to accept only what the Bible clearly says. The weight of evidence is on the side of the non-Trinitarians, as I see it:
THE DISHONEST TRINITARIANS
They have invented their own language. They teach that the word "person" means one thing for God and something else for everyone else. An ordinary person is just that, a single solitary person. But Trinitarians will say that the God who is called "he" and "him" is composed of three persons. They say that about no one else, only God, and they expect everyone to accept their invention, which is obviously not found anywhere in the Bible.
They keep changing their definition of "God," even within a single verse. For example, they say "God" is a Trinity. But at John 1:1, where the Bible says "the Word was with God," they do not believe that "God" is the Trinity in that phrase. In this case, "God" is the Father and the Holy Spirit (or the Father alone), according to them. Then the verse says, "and the Word was God." Here the Trinitarians give "God" still another meaning. Now "God" is only the second person of the Trinity, in actuality one third of "God."
They do not accept commonly used words, even simple ones that little children understand. For example, John 17:3 quotes Jesus himself as saying that the Father is "the only true God." Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus meant "only," as in "one and only." Jesus was addressing monotheistic Jews when he said that his Father is "the one and only God." (John 5:44) The Jews did not believe in a Triune God, so they understood who Jesus was talking about. But Trinitarians, by forcing the Trinity into Jesus' teaching, can only assume that he himself was thinking of a different sort of God than the Jews had in mind.
They deny reality. They will not admit, even to themselves, that they believe, as pagans do, in more than one God. For example, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also God, they certainly cannot be part of the "only" true God. (John 17:3) Further, if they are not the "true" God, the Trinitarian doctrine forces the belief that they are false gods.
They even deny the very words of the Bible. For example, 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not say that there is "one God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Instead, it says that "there is but one God, the Father." First Timothy 2:5 also says that "there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Despite what these verses say, Trinitarians claim that the one God is not the Father by himself, and they claim that Christ Jesus is equal to the Father, not "between" God and men.
Herk
Edited by - herk on 12 December 2002 13:19:36
Earnest

LittleToe:

I take issue with your points 5 and 6. They are not factual .

I have rephrased point 5 to make it clearer and the logical consequence of points 1 - 4:
1) God is infinite.
2) Distinguish infinity into three parts.
3) You have three infinite parts.
4) Each part is infinitely different to the other parts
~~5) Jesus and God have as much in common as Jesus and the Devil.~~

5) There are fewer differences between Jesus and the Devil than there are between Jesus and God.
6) Heinz [beans] is limited to 57 varieties

The teaching of the trinity was so contentious, even at the time of Constantine, that the only "acceptable" definition was to say that Jesus and God were of the same substance, which allowed it to mean all things to all men. The holy spirit was added years later and the argument as to whether "he" proceeded from both the Father and the Son or just the Father has split the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches to this day.
So it turns out that to speak of the trinity means different things to different people. What is a trinity in the West is heresy in the East. And there are many other refinements besides. I have proposed a few of the questions that the Church Fathers considered and it is as clear now as it was then that there simply are no answers.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 13 December 2002 18:15:11
UnDisfellowshipped

Here's a question for the people who do not believe in the Trinity:
The New Testament says that there is only One Lord for Christians, and that this Same Lord is Lord of all, and that this Lord is "The Only Lord".
My question is:
Is that "One Lord" and "Only Lord" The Father or The Son?
You can only choose One -- either The Father or Jesus.
Brumm
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
They keep changing their definition of "God," even within a single verse. For example, they say "God" is a Trinity. But at John 1:1, where the Bible says "the Word was with God," they do not believe that "God" is the Trinity in that phrase. In this case, "God" is the Father and the Holy Spirit (or the Father alone), according to them. Then the verse says, "and the Word was God." Here the Trinitarians give "God" still another meaning.
Let's see here...
First of all, the Greek word used for "God" both times in John 1:1, is the same word - "theos".
When Non-Trinitarians read John 1:1, here is how they read it:
The Word was with God Almighty, and the Word was an inferior, lesser god.
When Oneness Pentecostals read John 1:1, here is how they read it:
The Word was with God the Father, and the Word was God the Father.
When most Trinitarians read John 1:1, here is how they read it:
The Word was with God the Father, and the Word was God the Son.
Or, perhaps a better reading would be:
The Word was with God, and everything that God the Father is, the Word is. [i.e. The Word has all of the attributes and nature of the Father]
So, I wouldn't go around and say that Trinitarians are the only ones who change the definition of the word "God" when they read the Scriptures.
Non-Trinitarians (such as Herk) change the definition of "God" in the Verses that they can't accept, for instance, John 20:28 and Hebrews 1:8.
Non-Trinitarians change the definition of "God" in John 1:1, the first "God" mentioned is the Almighty and Supreme Being, and the second "God" is a lesser, inferior, separate being. (Same Greek Word!)
Also, the Scriptures interpret and explain themselves.
Why do Trinitarians say that the God who the Word was with was the Father?
Because the Apostle John himself later explains this:
1st John 1:1: That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we saw, and our hands touched, concerning the Word of Life
1st John 1:2: (and the Life was revealed, and we have seen, and testify, and declare to you the Life, the Eternal Life, which was with the Father, and was revealed to us);
1st John 1:3: that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 13 December 2002 1:50:45
DakotaRed

UnD, my friend, I don't wish to sound crass, but this is reaching for it. To get the true meaning of scripture, try to place yourself in the mindset of those who wrote it, not from how we see things today. Here is a short quote that addresses Lord and lord;
"The phrase 'to my lord' used in the oracle addressed to the Messiah in Psalm 110:1 appears 24 times. On these occasions men or women address men, especially the king. On every occasion when 'my lord' (adoni) and Yahweh appear in the same sentence, as in Psalm 110:1, 'my lord' invariably contrasts the One God with a human person. Readers of the Hebrew Bible are constantly exposed to the difference between God and His agents. 'O LORD (Yahweh), the God of my master (adoni) Abraham.' (Gen. 24:12) 'The LORD (Yahweh) has greatly blessed my master (adoni). (Gen 24:27) "

"Readers of the English bible are accustomed to recognizing 'LORD,' in capitals, as a translation of the original Yahweh. They may also know that the form 'Lord' (with capital L) indicates the original divine title adonai. In Psalm 110:1, however, the distinction is unfortunately lost -- and only in this single case -- when the Messiah appears in many versions as Lord (with capital) where the word is not adonai, the divine title, but adoni , 'my lord, the (human) king.' The false impression is thus created that the Messiah is the One Divine Lord since in all of it's 449 occurences adonai appears in English as Lord (with initial captial). The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges points out that the Revised Version 'has rightly dropped the capital letter on lord [in Ps. 110:1], as being of the nature of an interpretation. My lord (adoni) is the title of respect and reverence used in the Old Testament in addressing or speaking of a person of rank and dignity, especially a king (Gen 23:6; 1 Sam 22:12 and frequently). (A.F. Kirkpatrick, Psalms (Cambridge University Press, 1901, pg 665), as quoted in The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Pg 51,52).
May I recommend that instead of focusing so much attention on individual words translated into English, try to dig and get the essence of that was written. Since the Bible was written mostly by ancient Jews, read it from what they believed back then.
Bear in mind too that Jesus is Lord because his Father placed him there. (Philippians 2:9). All authority has been granted to Jesus by the Father (Matt. 28:18; John 5:27; John 19:11) and Jesus is the mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5), no one can approach God except through Jesus (John 14:6).
Please, try to get the meaning of the original statements, not what we read them as today, after being translated.
Lew W
UnDisfellowshipped

DakotaRed,
Thanks for your reply.
However, in my question, I asked, I had said:
"The New Testament says that there is only One Lord for Christians, and that this Same Lord is Lord of all, and that this Lord is "The Only Lord".
My question is:
Is that "One Lord" and "Only Lord" The Father or The Son?
You can only choose One -- either The Father or Jesus.
You only replied with information about the Old Testament.
Also, I don't know how I am "reaching for it" by asking a simple question.
Jude 1:4: For there are certain men who crept in secretly.... denying our Only Master and Lord....
1st Corinthians 8:6: yet to us there is.... One Lord....
Ephesians 4:4-5: There is.... One Lord....
1st Corinthians 12:5: There are various kinds of service, and the Same Lord.
Romans 10:12: ....for the Same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
Once again, my question is, Is this Lord the Father or the Son?
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 13 December 2002 1:0:24
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 13 December 2002 1:1:46
DakotaRed

UnD, you missed the essence of my reply.
Jude 1:4: For there are certain men who crept in secretly.... denying our Only Master and Lord....
Master = Strong's Ref. # 1203
Romanized despotes
Pronounced des-pot'-ace
perhaps from GSN1210 and posis (a husband); an absolute ruler ("despot"):
KJV--Lord, master.
Lord = Strong's Ref. # 2962
Romanized kurios
Pronounced koo'-ree-os
from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Mr. (as a respectful title):
KJV-- God, Lord, master, Sir.
1st Corinthians 8:6: yet to us there is.... One Lord....
Lord = Strong's Ref. # 2962
Romanized kurios
Please note, here in 1 Cor. 8:6, there is one God, the Father AND one Lord, Jesus. It is not saying both are the same, but that God is one and also Jesus is one separate.
Ephesians 4:4-5: There is.... One Lord....
Lord = Strong's Ref. # 2962
Romanized kurios
1st Corinthians 12:5: There are various kinds of service, and the Same Lord.
Lord = Strong's Ref. # 2962
Romanized kurios
Romans 10:12: ....for the Same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him.
Lord = Strong's Ref. # 2962
Romanized kurios
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
Lord = Strong's Ref. # 2962
Romanized kurios
Once again, my question is, Is this Lord the Father or the Son?
That is an unanswerable question the way you put it. You have a Greek word that has at least 4 definitions and look at a translated English word with one definition.
From Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read;
Topics: LORD, LORDSHIP
English Use: Noun
Strong's Number: 2962
Transliterated: kurios
Text: properly an adjective, signifying "having power" (kuros) or "authority," is used as a noun, variously translated in the NT, "'Lord,' 'master,' 'Master,' 'owner,' 'Sir,' a title of wide significance.......
Like I originally said, instead of looking at it from todays mindset, look at it from the mindset of the men who wrote it. Even though converting from Judaism to Christianity, they still had the mindset of ancient Jews, other than they accepted Jesus as the Messiah.
"Nothing could be clearer than that the One God of Jewish monotheism, on which Jesus' heritage was founded, was the Father. This unique being is often described as God and Father in the New Testament. Indeed He is the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 15:6; 2 Cor. 1:3; 11:31; 1 Pet. 1:3) His Son. Highly significant is the fact that Jesus even as "Lord" is still subordinate to his God. The Messianic title "Lord" therefore does not mean that Jesus is God." The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Page 21

"The meaning of words must be sought within the environment in which they were written. The Bible was not composed in the 20th century, nor did it's writers know anything of the subsequent creeds and councils. Context is all-important in determining the author's intent. Within the pages of [the Bible] Jesus never referred to himself as God. The fact is that the New Testament applies the word God -- in it's Greek form ho theos -- to God, the Father alone some 1350 times. The words ho theos (i.e. the one God), used absolutely, are nowhere with certainty applied to Jesus." The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Page 84
".... God is still the Father alone as in the Hebrew Bible. He is the Lord God of the creed of Jesus. The latter distinctly identifies himself as a "lord" who is not the one Lord God of the Shema (Mark 12:35 - 37). Jesus is the Lord Messiah and thus constantly designated "the Lord Jesus Christ [Messiah]." His messianic title "Lord" is derived from Psalm 110:1. The constant confusion by Trinitarians of the supreme Messianic title "Lord" with "Lord" meaning "Lord God" is the cause of all the difficulty. There is no good reason to blur the clear difference between Lord Messiah (adoni) and Lord God (Yahweh, and adonai) (Ps. 110:1, 5). We may still fully acknowledge that Jesus operates on behalf of God." The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications, Page 319.
I hope this explains my position a little better. You cannot box ancient Greek words with multiple meanings into singular meaning translated English words and retain the original flavor of the Bible. That results in confusion and contradictions, as well as improperly placed doctrines.
Lew W

The Trinity

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