Dateline discussed openly in our congregation

by TheMatrix 99 Replies latest jw friends

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  Dutchie

  "Be a living breathing thinking human being. I touched on it in another thread, to which noone responded. If someone murders someone, do you call your PO?? Give me a break. Use the brain Jehovah gave you and call the police. Does the Society offer driver's ed courses too? Why must people blindly rely for Society encouragement on every single facet of their lives?"

  Yes, we know that not only does this not make good sense, it is also dangerous. But the fact of the matter is that witnesses are encourgaged to run to the elders and there are many in the organization that are not as smart as you or I. So the organization owes a responsibility to those poor people and it should let them no in no uncertain terms that it is okay to go to the police first when charges of molestation arise. The society brainwashes these people into believing that they are God's spokemen on earth and then you want these people to disregard the group that they believe to be speaking for God? Come on now! Until the society makes a clear policy on what should happen in these types of cases you cannot blame the witnesses for going to the elders first, as they were told to do. It's the organization's fault and not the fault of poor, dumb, rank and file publishers.
• 

  Flip

  This makes them (whoever controls the Borg now)either fools or liars.

  Running man, might I also add...or used car salesmen, albeit financially successful...at least in the corporate sense.

  Flip
• 

  ThiChi

  "I know some of you might have some doubts and feel bad for victims of child abuse and how their cases were handled in the past, but don’t keep it all inside."

  IE: we want to know who you are.........
• 

  dungbeetle

  Don't feed the ???

  BEFORE YOU TRY AND REMOVE THE STICK FROM MY ARSE, REMOVE THE TELEPHONE POLE FROM YOUR OWN ARSE.

  
• 

  bonovox

  Stinkypantz -

  >>My problem with this is: how do you know if they are actually rehabilitated?<<

  And you are so right, this is a HUGE problem. I think what I meant to say by the larger problem with our justice system is that I think its really sad that this decision is being left to elders who are clearly not professionally, mentally, and it is evident in some cases, spiritually equipped to make the evaluation.

  It is troubling. I mean, let's say our justice system determines that the offender has rehabilitated, gone thru all the counselling, satisfies their parole and subsequent conditions (which isn't necessarily a cakewalk, or shouldnt be anyways, and as you mention alot of the re-offenses happen during these periods), and comes to the elders and repentantdly wants to be part of the congregation again (mind you I have very negative feelings about that individual being permitted back into the same congregation the offense occurred), and then a few years go by and the person re-offends, who do we throw the book at? What if he/she leaves a meeting one night and sees a kid on the street, maybe even a non-JW, and re-offends? Do we fault the elders?

  But all those hypotheses are getting away from the matters at hand, which as I see it is that for too long it has been way too easy for sickos to molest children and escape justice by relying either on their position within the congregation or the cloak of 'confessional confidentiality' which is practiced by alot of religions. The systemic conditions that allow for this MUST be changed. I think that it has to be a grassroots change. If it has to happen congregation by congregation, so be it. There is alot of old-guard in the GB. Im not so sure petioning them is the only thing that can be done. Sites like silentlambs can be used to severely expose molesters and those who protect them. Put their pictures up, post their phone numbers and addresses. Yeah, thats radical, but radical change is long overdue.

  I just want to touch on another thing you said, that of hating the JWs so much. Its understandable, and most of us here can identify with the human inclination to hate a group that has ostracised us. But believe me, hating them back is just as bad, if not worse, and will only eat away at you until it destroys you. It's love that will conquer all, including hateful old guard attitudes and policies. And its that love we should all work hard to embrace.

  There, Im off my soapbox for a bit... :)

  --------------------------------------------------------

  "one life but we're not the same, we've got to carry each other, carry each other, one love"

  One
• 

  Hmmm

  On the one hand:

  Most of us knew good elders, and this guy sounds like one of them.

  Back when I kept up my shorthand, I could have recorded every word with no problem. Maybe Matrix knows shorthand. Or maybe Matrix just captured the gist, but honestly failed to say s/he was paraphrasing.

  On the other hand:

  It's silly, and shows the kind of control Matrix is accustomed to living with, that they saw this as a "discussion".

  Matrix, ask yourself why the elders find it necessary to almost BEG the congregation to voice their concerns. Could it be because everybody knows that you simply do not question even the smallest matter? This open policy was so unorthodox that you felt the need to share it with us. What would be the response if you voiced concerns over a doctrinal issue?

  Why do you so bitterly attack Bill Bowen, when YOU KNOW that he is largely responsible for bringing this about? I'm sure you went home that evening with a warm fuzzy feeling in your tummy, knowing that your elders had vowed to protect you sheep--going farther than the bare minimum the society has set out. You should be thanking Bill Bowen for bringing this issue to the fore. Of course if you ever change congregations, or if your current body of elders changes, you'll have have one of those famously open discussions with the new brothers to see if they're also willing to put the safety of the congregation ahead of the GBs reputation.

  Hmmm
• 

  bonovox

  Dutchie I vowed I was gonna shut up for a bit but...

  The 'dumb rank and file' approach, while a sad reality, is dangerously close to the whole 'my leader told me to' defense. Just to go back to the original example of murder, I can't see the law accepting as a defense if you witnessed a murder and did nothing that your religion told you that without another witness your word would be invalid or to run to your leaders first and let them straighten it out - they'd charge you with being an accomplice, an accessory after the fact or at bare minimum obstructing justice.

  Its no secret that people who are either unable or unwilling to think for themselves are drawn in such large numbers to religions, its a well recognized psychological phenomenon. Its just really saddening, and I guess I have to say that for the sake of those people, the Society just needs to throw in the towel and stop trying to play judge and juror with criminal matters and just outright say 'Lookit - if someone commits a criminal offense against you or your family, while of course we want to know about it, don't run to us first. Call the police.' The second change is that, returning to the principle of firmly establishing a matter, once the law (which we are told we should live under, right?) has established that someone is guilty of a criminal act, they should not be allowed to retain their standing, regardless if only one person knew about it first or not. DNA, doctor's reports, pyschological evaluations etc all go into a criminal trial and as far as Im concerned if a judge and jury decides that someone is guilty of a crime, then so should the congregation.

  What happens after all that has been satisfied is far more problematic, as I mentioned previously. Maybe a complete exemption from field service requirement for that person and strict supervision would be part of the handling of such a person, if truly repentant and rehabilitated, and as mentioned, thats usually a very small percentage.
• 

  Simon

  Ah ... "TheMatrix"

  I noticed after you registered you made a couple of posts and then kept quiet for a bit. Did ya think I didn't know who you were?

  Please tell me how ApostoSuck, CheGuevara, ErnestoW, helpothers, HenryP, MavMan, SexyTeen, Spiderman, YoyoAgain, yoyoma, YoYoMama, yoyopappa and co are

  ... and please don't tell me it's someone else using your computer!
• 

  Simon

  For anyone unfamiliar with our friend 'the twit' from Dallas Fort Worth, I can sum it up simply:

  Disruptive, compulsive liar and complete waste of time.
• 

  crawdad2

  hi again!!!

  bonovox, you seem to be changing your tune alot..

  now you say systemic conditions that allow for this(child abuse), MUST be changed.............. well thank you!!!
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  but to sum it up, you wan't to touch on the issue of "hating jws" ........hmmm...... you mean you want us to stop attacking the gov body, and it's child abusing cover up policys, and focus on something esle,,,,,,, love the gov body?

  gosh,........ here we go again!...... basically you want everyone to stop their focus on forcing the gov body to change their abusive policys......

  you are very slick, bonovox! ..... did the gov body send you
  here?.......to sorta guide us in the right direction?..... you know, to say a few words about child abuse, and then get everyone to stop hating the gov body......just wondering