If you don't believe in God, Jesus, and everything in the Bible, you are willfully ignorant.

by defender of truth 104 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Ablebodiedman is now pierced on the horns of the age-old Euthyphro dilemma through Defender of Truth's excellent questions.

    Is something morally right just because God says and does it, or do morals exist independently of God and God subjects himself to certain universal moral principles? (eg, the Bible says "God cannot lie" - so therefore God cannot technically be omnipotent. Scripturally speaking, there are some things that even God is subject to).

    Ablebodiedman has categorically affirmed that he believes in Divine Command Theory (DCT), asserting that anything God does (eg, genocide or destroying a whole planet's population save a few) is morally justified simply because it comes from 'God', no matter now morally abhorrent such actions are to ordinary human beings.

    Right of the bat this creates an immediate intractable contradiction in that the Bible says human beings are created in 'God's image' and therefore human beings broadly have the same moral attributes as God, and genocide is universally morally rejected as evil by all sane human beings. So either God's moral attributes are entirely unrecognisable from human beings, or something is amiss with the historicity of the Bible where it attributes grossly morally repugnant actions to God. Ablebodiedman has to either choose in a genocidal, morally repugnant God or acknowledge that perhaps some accounts in the Bible are just the words of men, nothing more.

    But apart from that, Ablebodiedman's position also creates an insoluble moral dillemma in that it basically means there is no such thing as objective morality. There are no higher moral principles or laws that even God makes himself subject to. It means that 'might is right', morality is subjective and at God's whim, and the Devil's accusations against God that God rules by might not right and that God is arbitrary and capricious are correct.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Ethics by divine fiat!

    Objective morality is only possible by first rejecting god.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    God and his supposed son are constructs of human imagination as all other gods were.

    They were created with a purposefully intent and reason though by the people who imagined them and their relating actions.

    The pertaining question remains do you believe in my god ?, if not my god will kill you and your non existent god wont be there to help you.

    .

    Gods were always supposed to protect the people who invented them or do even greater things like relieve people from death and disease.

    .

    Unfortunately they never showed up , so humanity had to eventually resolve are problems ourselves.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Human ignorance created the many gods throughout human history, ironically human ignorance retains the beliefs in them to this day.

    Gods as humanity has defined them are a sociological phenomena without any practical evidence of them ever existing.

    The stories of them do exist though., through written texts or pictographs.

    Over all of these conceptual ideologies of there being gods, is this rational enough to kill one another or ourselves to support the belief

    of these gods in which we have envisioned in are own imagination ?

  • rjharris
    rjharris

    The mistake the religious system called by men - Christianity - has made, is that it looks to a book that actually came out of the Dark Ages that the man of European descent gave the name "The Bible" to as "the" authority rather than God and the one that he sent, chose, authorized and told us to listen to: Jesus [the] Christ.

    This book called the Bible was not sent by God, it was not authorized by God, it was not made holy by God, it was not called Scripture by God and it was certainly not called The Word of God by God. It was men who did all of those things.

    A book containing 66 smaller books appears on the earthly scene conveniently after the ascension of Christ and it becomes all the the things the Christ is? I don't think so.

    Yes, this book does contain sayings of God and Christ, but not the whole book; only a small portion of it does. Satan is is quoted in the book. So is Satan's utterances "The Word of God?" Of course not.

    What exactly is Scripture? It is anything that is "God-Breathed." In other words, it is anything that God says. Even Jesus said this to the Devil at his temptation at Matthew 4:4:

    "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth."

    Everything in this book called by men "The Bible" did not come out of God's mouth.

    Since Jesus is The Word of God, anything he says is Scripture since he is simply God's spokesman.

    Nothing else said by anyone else in the book called by men "The Bible" is Scripture. That so many believe that the entire book called The Bible is the Word of God it what has caused so much confusion in the so-called believing world. Most have been unable to make a distinction between the utterances of God and Christ to the entirety of the Bible. The Bible is NOT the Word of God, Christ is. It is blasphemous to stand up a book that men themselves authorized and gave a name to next to the Christ and call it the Word of God. The Bible is not God's spokesman, Christ is. (Rev 19:13)

    Many do not hear Christs voice in order to listen to it because they rely on a book - something that they can see and something that does not require hearing. There is no faith associated with the Bible because it can be seen. That God and Christ are invisible, faith is required. Faith is required to hear them.

    That this generation is completely faithless is seen in its trust and reliance in a book. It itself becomes the authority, not God and Christ. The very thing Christ taught his disciples to use to access the Father in heaven (for wisdom, knowledge and understanding) is not used. Instead, it is a book that many turn to for those things. Thus, it is a book and not the Son of God that many have turned to.

    So when a person says, "If you don't believe in God, Jesus, and everything in the Bible, you are willfully ignorant" they do know what they are saying and they have not thought this through. It is an "emotional" statement not a reasoning and rational one.

    Our belief and faith is to be in God and Christ. How did the Bible get inserted in the equation?

    Think: Who told the man of European descent to include only 66 of the 80 (or more scrolls) found in the canon? Who told him to call the book holy? Who told him to authorize it? Who told him to call it Scripture? Who told him to give it the name Bible? Who told him to call it the Word of God?

    Answer: He told himself to do those things. This is why we see the arrogance of the man of European descent portrayed in art, film and literature of Adam, Eve, Angels, Jesus, God, The Prophets, The Apostles, etc in the likeness of the man of European descent.

    So claims that others are willfully ignorant is a real stretch. What men named Christianity hates thinking persons. It seeks only blind acceptance without challenge or investigation.

    God and Christ are spirits and look nothing like the fleshly portrayals we see today. The book that "images" Christianity called the Bible is nothing but a modern-day Golden Calf.

    Jesus said at John 4:23-24 (this is Scripture because Jesus is speaking):

    "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."

    God is not worship with a book.

  • rjharris
    rjharris

    It is not logical that Christ will destroy those who never knew him. Christs teaching was that of love and forgiveness; something he more than aptly demonstrated.

    Did he condemn the adulterous woman that the Scribes and Pharisees condemned to death by stoning? No, he did not. Did he not promise a condemned man paradise? Yes, he did? Did he not ask forgiveness for his persecuters and executioners? Yes, he did.

    Christ was sent into the world to die for the sins (shortcomings) of ALL of mankind; even Adam. Adam died, he did not perish. We are even told at what age Adam died. Had Adam perished, he would not have a resurrection in the future.

    At John 5:28-29, Jesus promised a resurrection for ALL, not just some. That is all of mankind: Those who knew him, those who did not know him, and those who hated him.

    Not one person today is in a condemned state. I do not care what any religious organization teaches about this because it does not fit in with what Christ taught and the example he set. PERIOD.

    Not one person today is in a persishing state. We all, however, are in a death state.

    To perish means to no longer exist; if one does not exist, one cannot be resurrected as he does not exist in Gods memory. No one today is in this state.

    We all will die. When one dies, he is not in a persished state but is dead and still in God's memory to be resurrected out of that state.

    The ONLY WAY anyone can be in a perished state is if they commit a sin that is unforgivable. No such sin exist today because Christ has died for ALL sins.

    A time period will come in the future - after Christs 1000 year kingdom over the earth has ended - that all of mankind (who will have been resurrected) will know good from evil. Today, we do not know. Jesus showed this in his last minutes of life where he said at Luke 23:34:

    "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

    While many think they know what they are doing, they do not. None of us do. It is because we "do not know what we are doing" we WILL BE forgiven.

    Yet, a time will come (like I mentioned above) when all of manking WILL KNOW. It is this KNOWING and KNOWINGLY commiting evil in those future days after Christ kingdom ends, that one is subject to persish. Because in those future days, there will be no forgiveness of sins as one will know good from evil. Christ will have taken 1000 years to teach all of mankind - that he will have resurrected - good and bad. That is, God's righteousness.

    It is truly too bad that the religious systems - in particular the one called Christianity - teaches an entirely different message that never came out of Jesus' mouth. Christianity is intolerant, vindictive, hateful in many instances, unforgiving, divisive, and extemely condematory. Christ was none of those things.

    Christianity - who I view as an impostor - seeks blind agreement. It is either "join us or die." Jesus never taught such a thing.

    Christianity has no idea who Christ is. If it did, it would be like him in every way. Christianity is more like Cain than Abel.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    R J Harris, don't you see the glaring contradiction in basically trashing the whole Bible except for what Jesus said in the Bible?

    How on earth can we trust anything about Jesus or what he said as recorded in the Bible as being true when you've just trashed the Bible?

    It's silly, childishly arbitrary to cherry pick everything Jesus said in scripture and label it as the only 'real scripture' while labelling all the rest of scripture as 'false scripture'.

    You've sawn off the branch you are sitting on.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    [I just had to reply to this..]

    RJharris said:
    "Everything in this book called by men "The Bible" did not come out of God's mouth.
    Since Jesus is The Word of God, anything he says is Scripture since he is simply God's spokesman.
    Nothing else said by anyone else in the book called by men "The Bible" is Scripture. "

    Question for RJ...
    So you are saying that, of the entire Bible, only Jesus' words recorded in the Gospel accounts are the Words of God?

    .............

    Rjharris said:
    "Christianity is intolerant,...divisive, and extremely condemnatory. Christ was none of those things."
    You've got to be kidding me. Bear those three traits in mind as you read the following quotes from the Word of God himself...

    Matthew 10
    New International Version (NIV)
    5 "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:...
    14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.
    15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."
    ...

    Luke 9:59
    "He said to another man, “Follow me.”
    But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
    60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

    ...

    Matthew 10:34
    “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
    35 For I have come to turn “a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law —
    36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
    37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

    ...

    Matthew 12:30
    "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

    ...

    Matthew 23:24
    "You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
    25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
    27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.
    28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."

    ...

    John 7:7
    "The world...hates me because I testify that its works are evil."

    ...

    John 3:18
    "18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

    ...

    Mark 16:14
    "Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
    15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
    16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
    [All quotes taken from NIV for convenience, use any Bible you like though].

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    ABLEBODIEDMAN, I hope you will reply to my questions?...

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Cofty,

    I remain a believer and I have morals.

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