One aspect of evolution that does not make sense.....

by EndofMysteries 153 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Jon Preston
    Jon Preston

    jon preston - " to say atheists and agnostics and others are wrong is downright....strange". - many things in the science field are still 'theory' they can be wrong, they can't be proven.

    Can you be wrong EOM? Hm? Your faith is a theory! As are your 1. , 2., and 3., points....what of it? Please be very specific as i do not enjoy jumping through theologiCal hoops utilizing my own imagination to attempt to get at what YOU are thinking. Be transparent, discreet (slave? Hahhaha jk jk ;-)). Let us all in laymans terms get at the same idea so we can each decipher for ourselves the meaning of your point to truly test whether it is true or not ( like the boreans)

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    More back to the original question or idea I was trying to explain...... A chameleon for example, it's ability to camoflauge and look almost identical to where it's standing, and to get even more specific depending on the type of predator in the area, evolution absolutely does not make sense and explain that.

    Is not hiding a thought? Somebody is looking for me, I must try to hide and blend in?

    You've hit upon a key point here. The camouflaging is not a thought, as far as I'm aware. It's an instinct developed by trial and error. Of course the actual act of scurrying away from an attacker is conscious, but the camouflaging, if that's what you mean by hiding, is probably instinctual.

    The cameleons body itself can't know if predators are looking for it or that camoflauge will hide it.

    This is true. The chameleon has to spot his hunter before he can camouflage appropriately. Once he's identified, say, a bird that is watching him, it causes an automatic reaction that changes the chameleon's patterns.

    Even within cells itself and viruses, some viruses when they take over cells will camoflauge the cells they are taking over so the t cells won't notice them.

    Yes, this too comes from trial and error. We're talking about simple chemical reactions; so for instance, say that T cells hunt for viruses by giving a call and response, and if the response is foreign, not one that the body's cells would give off, it attacks that cell. A virus randomly acquires the trait of not responding in a way that the T cell can sense. The virus has now become invisible to the T cell (this is a hypothetical example, I am not very familiar with the workings of the immune system). This virus will successfully reproduce en masse and pass on its invisibility gene.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    EOM,

    Individuals never evolve. Populations evolve.

    This "evolution" has nothing to do with thinking. No thought is needed. Evolution is a natural algorithm. Individuals within the population have variations for their traits. Those that pass on their traits "win" in the sense that the next gernation has a greater frequency of those traits. Over time, the population shifts. They don't have to think about shifting, simply surviving and making the next generation.

    Here is an example. The evolutionary algorithm can be emulated in a computer. This individual created random "fish". Each fish is just a set of rules for swiming around and finding the randomly placed food. At first they are all quite stupid. But the ones that eat more are used to create the next gereration by crossing their genes. The fish don't think. They just get food, live, and pass on their traits. Notice how fast they turn from "stupid" to "smart".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp9kzoAxsA4#aid=P-Vij_Q_eTY

    MMM

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    meanmrmustard - I understand that video concept and ofcoarse the smarter fish survive and pass on those genes, etc. Now let's say within that same video, they had sharks as well.

    What WOULD make sense are that the fastest, quickest, and smartest fish would escape and those are the ones that by many generations would improve and get away.

    What would NOT make sense is that let's say the sharks absolutely hated jellyfish and suddenly out of those same fish, some developed the ability to look like those exact jellyfish that the sharks hate, according to many people here, that could happen and they can't find anything to question how that makes sense. Whereas how would they get the ability to look like something the predator doesn't like? Or camouflage, how did and WHY did camoflauge develop/evolve?

    If there is no thought process involved, what could cause the ability to look identical to your surroundings to evolve, what would trigger it? What chemical response could possibly cause that? And aside from the thought or idea of camouflage and hiding or blending in, where did the idea of copying and looking like surroundings get introduced?

    Does not evolution teach that each thing evolved served a purpose and reason in response to environment and the loss due to no longer needing it?

  • cofty
    cofty

    Or camouflage, how did and WHY did camoflauge develop/evolve?

    How much effort have you made to research the answer to your own question?

    In any population there will be individuals who, due to random mutations, are very slightly harder to spot against certain backgrounds in certain light conditions than other members of the group. They will be slightly less likely to get eaten before they breed than others.

    Genes for markings that are easy for predators to spot will tend to disappear from the gene pool, in favour of genes that give a very slight advantage. Some of the next generation will experience further mutations that will make their offspring slightly harder to spot than their parents and so on and so on over thousands of generations.

    It's a gradual step-by-step process. Population studies have demonstrated how quickly a tiny advantage can spread through a whole gene pool very quickly.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Does not evolution teach that each thing evolved served a purpose and reason in response to environment and the loss due to no longer needing it?

    The word "purpose" is misleading since there is no conscious intention on the part of the animal or nature. Also, changes don't always help an organism. Some changes happen which give both advantages and disadvantages to that animal (plant, etc.). It's really just a game of gains/losses. Not every change is useful, but it could stick around anyway. But if it wastes too many resources without benefiting the animal, it won't catch on in the gene pool.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard

    @EOM:

    meanmrmustard - I understand that video concept and ofcoarse the smarter fish survive and pass on those genes, etc. Now let's say within that same video, they had sharks as well.

    What WOULD make sense are that the fastest, quickest, and smartest fish would escape and those are the ones that by many generations would improve and get away.

    Why would that make any more sense than the fish on the other end of the spectrum (the really slow ones) gaining an advantage by slowing down and simply blending into the surroundings (rocks and the like) as camouflage ?

    See my inline comments marked in [brackets, bold, and italics], and then some further comments below it:

    What would NOT make sense is that let's say the sharks absolutely hated jellyfish and suddenly [What do you mean by "suddenly". Even evolutionists wouldn't use such a word here] out of those same fish, [what do you mean "same fish" - remember individuals never evolve, ever] some developed the ability to look like those exact jellyfish that the sharks hate, according many people here, that could happen and they can't find anything to question how that makes sense. [I dont' think that is true. There have been examples given, some hypothetical, some real] Whereas how would they get the ability to look like something the predator doesn't like? Or camouflage, how did and WHY did camoflauge develop/evolve?

    How would they get the ability to look like any surroundings? In the previous comment I was hinting that you were focusing in on the fast fish, as if they are "better", but they may not be. You seem to be stuck with a "i-can't-see-the-entire-series-of-steps-in-my-mind-therefore-it-must-not-be-able-to-occur" mentality. It is somewhat like the "irreducibly complex" fallacy.

    If there is no thought process involved, what could cause the ability to look identical to your surroundings to evolve, what would trigger it?

    There is no specific trigger. Just populations with traits, some better suited the the current environment than others.

    What chemical response could possibly cause that?

    It is not a chemical process, it is an inter-generational process involving populations.

    And aside from the thought or idea of camouflage and hiding or blending in, where did the idea of copying and looking like surroundings get introduced?

    Nobody comes up with the idea. It is not a thinking process.

    Does not evolution teach that each thing evolved served a purpose and reason in response to environment and the loss due to no longer needing it?

    No. That might be where you are hung up. There are simply: a) populations with variation, b) ununiform reproduction (some pass on, some don't, some pass on a little, some a lot), and c) the population shifts over time. These structures don't come about for a "purpose" per-se. The traits are magnified (selected upon) or not. The effect is what looks like purpose, but it is not.

    MMM

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    All of these answers seem to be assuming that by chance an organism happens to over time look like it's surroundings and so those who happen to slowly mutate into looking more like their surroundings are the ones that blend in. That can make sense for those that have just one appearance, I might buy that for a dollar.

    Not for a chameleon though that changes his appearence to blend in to the surroundings and based on the type of predator looking at him.

    Maybe this will answer my question, somebody explain to me before a chameleon had the ability to camouflage itself, if it was always just a brown skinned creature, explain the process of evolution and the triggers that it developed the ability to camouflage.

    Cameleon generation 1 - one color, has no more ability to change it's colors and appearance then would a human be able to.

    Explain how by generation 100, or 1000, etc, it can do it.

    Now for something like why humans needed wisdom teeth but now they don't that would be easy to explain, but I can't think of how they would go from no ability to change color to what they do now, so perhaps if you can explain it that way, it will make sense.

  • cofty
    cofty

    a chameleon ... changes his appearence to blend in to the surroundings and based on the type of predator looking at him.

    No it doesn't, that's a myth. The colour changes are like language. they send signals to female's, competitors and predators. Many fish do the same trick. It's a more advanced example of the signals human communicate when they blush.

    The camouflage is secondary. The world is full of examples of evolution using an inovation for other purposes.

    Read this...

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    If that's the case cofty, then camouflage would only be coincidental if they happened to be in an area that matched what colors it changed into. Since it matches what colors are around it, then that takes away that possibility.

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