Soon to be 18 and quit speaking to her mother- suggestions?

by Sanysfriend 95 Replies latest members private

  • BackseatDevil
    BackseatDevil

    @ jgnat hhhhhhhhhhhell no.

    I can't even take care of my plants.

    I don't mean to be crass, but there is nothing to discuss here. An exiting JW must sever all ties and act as harshly TO them as they will in return. Mentally it is exhausting. HOWEVER... what is more exhausting, hateful, and disrespectful is the constant pecking at the exJW when those still in think that there may be SOME CHANCE the lost sheep will return. THAT is far more harmful emotionally than the pain felt from ripping a band-aide off quickly.

    Through this extended torture comes callous hearts, apathy, lethargic politeness, and other issues that encase the exJW that prevents them from breathing, moving, growing properly. Think of it as keeping a butterfly in a jar. You remove the metal lid with holes, but place a wire mesh in it's place. They can feel the fresh air... they can taste the fresh flowers, but they can't actually MOVE.

    PEOPLE KNOW THEIR FAMILY... and the how to react properly (however nice it is to post on behalf of a "friend"). But (as I've mentioned a few times) I have been out of that religion and HAPPY for 15 years and my mom and childhood friends STILL HOUND ME thinking that I'm going to come back at any moment. It has destroyed me as a person and derailed my career because there is no kind way to say "stop". There is no nice way to explain "you are killing me." Any soft heart shown is a wedge that means they can get you BACK INTO THE FOLD.

    It's psychotic

    Please understand... I am the extreme. But with strong religious groups of ANY kind, having multiple people in the religion causes them to feed each other and sirs them up. "How is so-and-so?" "oh i don't know. I checked her facebook. I think their falling into the wrong ctowd." "we should do something." and at your door they appear to "help."

    I had to get rid of my facebook for just this reason.

    Family is nice. But it's biology. Mental health is better. Emotional strength is gold. If you can't find these values in your family... then GET A NEW FAMILY.

    We are humans... we have that power.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    coppersgirl67 - . . . She is much more free spirited like myself and delves deeper into the way she considers and feels for others as well as wants to be able to accomplish much more in life. . . . she loves to travel like myself and is always interested in others and what they do or have done in life. . . .

    I work for a school and will be off the next couple of weeks and think that I am going to make a sort of memory box for her....a scrap book of sorts. Pictures of us through the years, copies of letters I wrote to her in life, a letter or poem, and lastly a short but well thought out page or two of some very good points for her to ponder and possibly a website or two that she could go to on her own if she ever so desired. . . .

    . . . But, Sierra in one conversation actually said in tears, "Then show me in the bible where it is not the truth!".....I was so stunned and had not prepared to be able to show her from the bible.....if I had the opportunity to hit on say 3 specific points what points would you suggest I point out and what scriptures would you use to prove it. . . .

    Hi coppersgirl67, It sounds like Sierra makes decisions based on her emotions, instead of critically thinking for herself. Who does Sierra respect and want to please the most in life? Her older sister? Her father? If she gives into doubts, she may feel that she will jeopardize that relationship.

    Before you write your letter to Sierra either read Steve Hassan's "Freedom of Mind" book or talk with Steve Hassan (or one of his coaches) by phone for advice for ~$100. The shorter your letter to Sierra the better, because the more that you write the more ammunition her cult persona will see to prove to herself that she is right. About the only safe thing to write is that you love her unconditionally and you look forward to answering her question about the Bible in the future. At the bottom of your letter, you could write a P.S. - I learned TTATT by visiting www.jwfacts.com and/or www.freedomofmind.com.

    I would recommend that you start another thread asking for suggestions to help you to prove that the WTBTS does not have the "Truth" using the Bible to your daughter.

    If Sierra does call you in the future, ask her simple questions to learn what she is feeling or to help her to critically think for herself before answering questions about what you believe. I would recommend that you read the thread exJW Psychology 102--How to Ask a Question When Questions Aren't Allowed by Billy the Ex-Bethelite to learn how to ask questions that will not raise suspicions with JWs.

    Best of wishes helping Sierra to critically think for herself.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Sany, welcome. It is a terrible situation to be set a date for your child to stop talking to you. Unfortunately, it is probably too late to start to try and reverse her indoctrination. That should have been done years ago. Can I ask, is it because you still believe the relgion to be truth? Or are you unable to explain why it is a wrong?

    If you have not researched the religion, look through jwfacts.com/ and Disfellowshipping and Shunning. Before discussing anything with your daughter, also look at helping-someone-leave.php You may not be able to help her stay away from the religion, but at least you may show her how shunning family is wrong, and that you have a firm reason for not being part of the religion and will not be going back, and it is only reasonable that she retains the mother/child bond.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Backseat Devil raised an important aspect that deserves reinforcing:

    Through this extended torture comes callous hearts, apathy, lethargic politeness, and other issues that encase the exJW that prevents them from breathing, moving, growing properly. Think of it as keeping a butterfly in a jar. You remove the metal lid with holes, but place a wire mesh in it's place. They can feel the fresh air... they can taste the fresh flowers, but they can't actually MOVE.

    PEOPLE KNOW THEIR FAMILY... and the how to react properly (however nice it is to post on behalf of a "friend"). But (as I've mentioned a few times) I have been out of that religion and HAPPY for 15 years and my mom and childhood friends STILL HOUND ME thinking that I'm going to come back at any moment. It has destroyed me as a person and derailed my career because there is no kind way to say "stop". There is no nice way to explain "you are killing me." Any soft heart shown is a wedge that means they can get you BACK INTO THE FOLD.

    It's psychotic

    Please understand... I am the extreme. But with strong religious groups of ANY kind, having multiple people in the religion causes them to feed each other and sirs them up. "How is so-and-so?" "oh i don't know. I checked her facebook. I think their falling into the wrong ctowd." "we should do something." and at your door they appear to "help."

    JWs are raised to perceive themselves as the "victim", and the tendency often becomes an intrinsic aspect as an unconscious bias, whether in or out: that's EXACTLY what nurturing and manicuring the notorious "Xian persecution complex" is all about. The problem is, it's inherently egocentric, focusing only on the perspective of the victim, and forgetting about everyone else.

    Backseat Devil's families are likely just as pained by being trapped between a rock and a hard place of what they're told they MUST do by the Borg for the sake of their family member, vs what they suspect in their hearts is the proper action. Point being, it's likely just as painful and difficult for THEM, and that's why they cling to hope that it's the proper treatment and give it more time, encourage each other that it IS the right course and it's only a matter of time until the person "wakes up" and repents of their sinful nature (the process of encouraging each other is actually "confirmation bias": of course, they call it "building each other's faith, helping others remain steadfast in the face of temptation from Satan").

    Point being, it's incredibly easy to demonize them and blame them, when the entire social dynamic is dysfunctional; there are no 'perps', only victims who suffer from self-inflicted wounds and injury.

    I wrote an article of how ex-JWs can break the dysfunctional cycle by refusing to play the victim and show pain, since it only provides feedback to them that shunning is causing the shunnee to feel discomfort, when no spit, Spar: that's exactly WHY they do it, and complaining of the pain and misery it causes only encourages them to keep it up! It only confirms and reinforces the message of the GB, it doesn't challenge it.

    http://awgue.weebly.com/countering-jw-shunning-how-the-implications-of-stanley-milgrams-work-may-suggest-using-a-different-approach.html

    Making a clean break by telling them you're not taking the bait, and delivering that message in no uncertain terms (and then sticking to it) is needed (depending on where you are in the process). I recently saw where Cofty did that, saying there's not a snowball's chance in Hades of him returning so shunning won't change anything. It's actually the most merciful for all parties, notifying them that you're not playing their game so they don't cling to false hopes.

    Some ex-JWs go out of their way to "kill them with kindness" (although some don't have the 'extrovert actor' persona required to pull that one off).

    I'd say anything BUT confirming that the shunning is causing pain and distress inflicted on the target is going to help break the cycle; don't misunderstand that I'm NOT saying it's causing the shunnee pain, but it's the old mantra, "Never let them see you sweat". It doesn't provide them the feedback that only encourages more...

    Adam

  • whathappened
    whathappened

    Welcome to this forum. I am not df'd or da'd but I told my daughter ttatt and she sees me as an apostate. In the beginning she said she would not shun me, but I tried to teach her ttatt and she resisted. She and her husband decided to severely restrict me to just an occasional phone call check in. After repeated emails pleading fora mercy from me, they let me see them again, provided I don't talk about ttatt. I agreed so that Iwould still see them.

    So some tearful pleading may help you and don't let up. Eventually the girls may crack.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Backseatdevil, I totally understand what you are getting at, but we are talking children and future grandchildren here. Sure, the child has been told that only by harshly shunning can she hope to get her mother back. A hard and cruel message that surely twists the poor child's heart. Besides, it doesn't work. It will undoubtedly lead to worlds of regret when the young woman matures and wakes up to the years lost.

    I can't imagine a loving mother being able to cut off her children and adopt a new family. I gladly give that advice to grown children with toxic parents. More than anything I want to give that mother hope, and give her new ways to evidence that regardless of all her children were taught, she loved them constantly and always.

    The local witnesses live with that stupid idea that they can influence me to join their little club. Every fiber in my being resists any encouragement in that direction. Even, so, I will talk to their authentic selves.

  • BackseatDevil
    BackseatDevil

    @jgnat "I can't imagine a loving mother being able to cut off her children and adopt a new family."

    If someone (anyone) cannot imagine that, then they shouldn't have become Jehovah's Witnesses in the first place. Matthew 10:35-36 was read to me WHEN I WAS NINE YEARS OLD regarding my brother who was kicked out of the house. Anyone who is baptized a JW accepts ALL the religion... disfellowshipping, shunning, everything.

    Children and future grandchildren? No strong Jehovah's Witness should worry about this (it' might not be translated as this is being told through a "friend"). They're all going to die at Armageddon anyway, so why get attached? It could be "Satan pulling at your heart to accept something in the world to draw you out." Why is this such an issue? I have 11 aunts and uncles and countless cousins I have (basically) never met. Last I saw my closest cousin was at my father's hospital visit for 10 minutes... time becore that... I was 5 years old. THAT'S IT.

    Because the religion said they were not appropriate association... we didn't associate with them. So again... accordin to the JW's - family is just biology, NOT an emotional attachment. So why bring emotion into it? Per the religion... once you leave, you GET A NEW FAMILY. If you stay in the religion YOU HAVE A BETTER FAMILY (supposedly) anyway - a ton of "brothers and sisters" and "sons and daughters" to replace your wicked children who will be mangled to death at Armageddon. There should be little or no discussion about this (as I mentioned).

    @adamah thank you. (this is in my case as I'm DFed) I refuse to feel bad only because I am showing the exact same act of shunning to my family as they are required to show me. This is THEIR RULE. I didn't come up with it. I'm just (apparently) doing a better job at following it then they are. In this case, it is the parent's fault for following a religion that practices such harsh treatment. Why should ANY of us feel bad at the results and outcome they must face because of it?

    If they do not like my version of shunning... THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE SHUNNING IN THE RELIGION AS A RULE. And somehow I'm suppose to feel bad for doing such? For not thinking about the children or grandchildren? I'm suppose to have a leway for a rule that is a requirement for all JWs to follow?

    That's not going to happen.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The psychic pain from denying our very nature, the damage, it is nearly more than I can imagine.

    I never bought in to the stupidity, by the way, but I think anyone is vulnerable. Is the fly responsible for being caught in a Venus Fly Trap? Or was it simply wrong place, wrong time?

    I don't see why a mother should lie down and take it just because of bad choices.

    I was a teen mom, battered wife, and welfare mom. I could have just accepted my failure but like the ant with the potted plant, I had high hopes. I worked off welfare, raised my children to be confident and independent, and rose above my raising. I wrapped up a twenty-five years in the Civil Service as a manager responsible for a million dollar budget.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Again, I see nothing wrong with you practicing reverse shunning and getting on with your life. I understand the emotional barriers you have made to preserve your heart. This is one way of dealing with the pain, and is understandable. Between child and parent.

    But when it is in reverse, parent to child, there are forces you can only guess at knowing. The parent has invested. The child and grandchildren represents a future the parent will never see. To enjoy those fruits, to watch them mature and grow, is the greatest blessing a parent can know. It pays to fight for it.

  • BackseatDevil
    BackseatDevil

    @jgnat I don't see why a mother should lie down and take it just because of bad choices.

    Survival of the fittest deems that no one gets special treatment just because they make your heart feel all warm and gooy on the inside. I'm sorry. This happens with parents who lose children to actual death. The (youtube famous) father of four who quit his job WITHOUT WARNING to attend more meetings without stress not only has been unemployed ever since... but he has A FAMILY OF FOUR who all have to lie down and take it... all because of his bad choice.

    In other words... in our case, it's just a mother who must suffer - a suffering that could be relieved if she wasn't in a cult. But if the mother had her selfish way, then she suffers... along with the children, the children's partner, other family members, friends, the grandchildren, the grandchildren's friends, etc. Either way, it's pretty f**kin' selfish of the mom to make it ALL ABOUT HER. It's not. It's only all about her because of her choices - the rest of the world (family?) spins off uninterrupted.

    I'm sorry... ALL of us suffer for our choices regardless of our responsibilities. We are lucky if our bad choices do not affect anyone else (children for example), but sometimes it does. No one is immune to natural selection. It sucks but it's how the earth keeps moving forward.

    EDIT: TO BE NICER.

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