by XPeterX 72 Replies latest jw friends
The mind/brain creates them... just like it images someone or things being there who or which doesn't exist (schizo).
I once was confused (something had happened) and I heard a baby crying and saw some hands in a hospital picking me up as a baby. It would not have occured if I was not confused... it is one of those situations that I was truly mindfucked. It was no vision... it was confusion.
The ghost i saw opened and closed a door. the sound of it the door opening and closing was heard by my mother.
The problem with these subjects in that often the subtext is often not mentioned. These subtexts are the world views, starting points and premises of how people think the world works in combination with their own critical thinking and experiences. The subjective and objective worlds are at issue also in terms of personal and publicly or scientifically demonstrable experience. Also is the issue of the connections between the subjective and objective worlds.
It is of course true that people who have seen ghosts for instance like me, could have seen an entirely subjective thing that is caused by physical structures of the brain. I.e. what I saw is not there at all in the physical world but only in the internal virtual world of mentality. If this is case then it is caused by a mental illness of some kind, or some kind of disruption to the normal way the brain processes signals, as with the God helmet and perhaps certain meditational techniques that are known to also change the way the brain functions.
If it is a case of abnormal brain function that is responsible, then certain features in reasonableness will have to also be present. These would include there being no multiple witnesses to the perceived event, as what is seen has no objective or shared reality. If the phenomena of mass hysteria really is true, which is debatable, then for real cases of the paranormal like ghosts and so on, multiple witnesses would best be physically apart in order to overcome this objection. The problem with mass hysteria is that if true, then evidence for anything including science can also be suspect because there is doubt being placed on evidence itself, even if corroborated by multiple eyes. Another feature one would expect in the case of abnormal brain function is the complete absence of any physical effect in the objective world as a result of the perceived supernatural experience. Again if there were such effects then multiple witnesses would be needed, along with the correct types of circumstances in order to rule out fakery in the reporting of such cases.
It has to be acknowledged of course that in cases of no witnesses being present and mental illness being operative in the one witnessing such things, that this doesn’t of itself mean nothing paranormal happened. Even mentally ill people who hallucinate can also see or experience real things in the objective world. How about the subjective world? Can the subjective world of personal mentality be subject to other mentalities? This is an open question. Although there is little doubt that disrupted brain function can cause literal perceptions of subjective manifestations, or hallucinations for an individual, it is less clear what perception is anyway.
If one is a materialist as many, although not all atheists are, then perception is an allusion of the brain, when really what is occurring are the simple effects of particles on other particles, and that is all. If however the famous double slit experiment is true, then this view is suspect, for perception seems to be the very thing effecting the change in behaviour rather than particles effecting particles. In order to explain this in merely physical terms, the explanation can has to be kicked further down the road, as with a jigsaw with one piece permanently missing and another being moved to fill the gap on on-going basis.
Materialism is but one view of many and is certainly true to a degree, or science would not work, but it raises as many questions as it answers, not least how it itself can come to be in the first place. There is no way to prove that it is an exclusive explanation, and because of this other views exist.
Even science and materialisms foundation is fundamentally reliant on witness testimony, or more specifically multiple witness testimony, when one thinks about it carefully. There is another feature of science that is also part of the foundation, and that is comprehensibility. Does it fit into a matrix of known and understood casual relationships, to put it more technically? Here is should be mentioned that quantum mechanics of double slit fame does not fit into this criteria interestingly enough, as many experts, although not all, in that field will attest.
So comprehensibility and multiple witness testimony are keys to science and by extension materialism, which is the view that science is all there is, in terms of knowledge. However all witness testimony, even multiple witness testimony is based on subjective perception. Only an individual can agree or not with anther in essence. This being the case, what of comprehensibility? Well as stated before, there are problems with even this in what gets called science.
So perhaps it is not wise to so easily discount subjective perceptions as having some actual reality even with a lack of real world effect or multiple witnesses. However there are cases of the paranormal or supernatural that do have multiple witnesses who are not always in the same location and cases of real physical effects. These cannot be easily dismissed as mental or abnormal brain function nor should they. Of course, if one starts off with the view that such things are impossible because they think that science indicates materialism, and materialism indicates that anything that goes against comprehensibility is wrong, then perhaps this is the result of fear and insecurity that there may be more going on than they realise. There is a certain comfort in living in a box because what they cannot see can’t hurt them. This is a daft view to have, considering that there are issues with the box as good as it is, in the objective public world we live in, even though it gets mistaken for the totality of existence.
There is evidence that one’s own inner world is not entirety cut off from other people. It’s not just the double slit experiment that provides this but the phenomena of shared dreams. These can be verified. If this is the case, then even internal perceptions may relate to something `real` i.e another person’s mentality and perceptions. Even if no one else sees the ghost and it is not physically there, it doesn’t mean the ghost isn’t `real`.
Just a few thoughts.
My experience is, in a way, was supernatural. When I was a very zealous JW, I used to wonder what if this JW system fails, if this is really correct?
I wanted to try meditation in the early morning hours. I began to get some insight into some of the teachings of JWs. The first one I wanted to check the validity was of the ransom teaching? Why does it elude my understanding or defy all the known logic? I assumed as though I was speaking to God!
I heard someone asking me a question: “If you put your faith in a teaching that says the innocent was killed to save the sinners, what do you think will happen to you—will your sins be removed or be increased?” I said: My sin will only be increased. You answered correctly, the voice said. So what am to do? The voice directed me to read James 2:9-10. I immediately read it: “ For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at JUST ONE point is guilty of breaking ALL OF IT. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”also said, “You shall not murder.”
What did you understand? Even if I am 99% saintly, that remaining 1% will cost my life, I said.
“You are right; Now you do as you please!” the voice said.
I told about this to my wife. She closed her ears with her hands and ran away from me.
But I did not stop my meditation!
OK I know some of you are going to mock me but I don't give a shit and you'd better get dafaq outta this thread if you don't beleive in this stuff.
So,you ever seen Santa Claus, or Smurfs, or the Tooth Fairy, or a leprecan? C'mon share your experiences and stories! Personally I've never had an encounter with the other side.
I only want people to verify that it is true, I don't want nonbelievers sounding all rational and logical with me. I don't want alternative explanations. I don't want to hear that it was your parents that bought the toys or put the money under your pillow. I want to know that I can find a pot of gold in my lifetime or help the smurfs on a smurfy adventure.
Really, I said nothing inconsistent with the opening post.
I would quite like an alternative explanation for my experience.
Splash
Splash: I would quite like an alternative explanation for my experience.
I was out walking with a non-religious friend one time and while discussing different things, I called out the name of Satan.
Instantly, at that very second, we both physically ducked down as we each felt a terrifyingly evil presence upon us.
It was an involuntary ducking down, just as you would if there was a nearby and unexpected explosion.
He looked at me with a "WTH just happened?"look. It was just as if the dark lord himself had come to see who was calling him. To say our flesh crawled is a huge understatement - it was truly fearful and I'll never forget it.
Splash
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENED. You both felt the need to duck because of calling on Satan, and your mind decided later that it was an involuntary ducking. No actual dark lord did anything. I know you will say you are just as sure as those that get verbal communication from Jesus, but it just isn't so.
While it is not necessary, I would add that you may have partaken of recreational fluids or other substances. I would question the mood that you were both in that made you yell out to Satan and how that could add to your thinking the very yelling would cause a situation to happen. I mean, in my daily life, I virtually never just call out "Satan" for no particular reason.
Thanks OTWO, I have to admit, my involuntary ducking has got out of control recently.
No substances involved, the context was relating a story I had heard while on holiday.
But with irrefutable and insightful explanations like 'ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENED', I know where to come the next time something (doesn't) happen.
Splash
Does Jennifer Love Hewitt's butt count as supernatural? If so, then yes..
If it was Satan I'm not sure how ducking would have helped :)
