Giant thread of convince-me-not-to-be-a-theist

by DS211 243 Replies latest jw friends

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    STOP guessing about how it works, go and read it in a text book!

    How can so many people talk with such conviction yet without any knowledge? Seriously! I think it is born in the world of JW's where we had to make up answers on the spot. STOP talking shit about the evolution of skin colour and bones open a textbook or read a journal paper, this is a long ago understood process and is well explained in detail.

    The answers are not on an internet forum...funnily enough :/ and to people simply making crap up on the spot... its a bad habit!

    End of mysteries... If you think jawbones are the only difference between homo sapien sapiens and our ancestors then you are HUGELY mistaken. Copying and pasting from the internet things you don't understand, may buy you time in an argument, but what is the point of that? You may dilute someones points against you temporarily but it is yourself you sre hurting. You clearly don't understand the terms species, neither do you comprehend the fossil/bone/dna data we have to separate the various species of the human ancestorial branch.

    Been as all extinct animals including human ancestors dinosaurs and neanderthals etc were only discovered and noticed 150 yesrs ago once dug up and studied, amazingly but as expected .....the bible doesnt mention them. Add to that the vague term 'kinds' that is useless to studying and categorising animals hence the very complex 'species' mechanism humans have devised because ......IT IS useful for categorising animals.

    Putting all of that kinds/species aside, it is the EVIDENCE that dictates what is true not people making shit up...

    "If there were different human races, different kinds of humans in their true form from creation, I believe they have been wiped out. The giants, etc."

    What the hell are you talking about? You do realise you csn't just make shit up on the spot? People dedicate 70 yesrs of their life to studying and researching the basics of human history, but you feel it ok that you, a non expert,with no evidence, can simply assert ideas?!

    it gets worse.....Giants!?........ This is madness, what do you think happened to the unicorns? You dont believe in prehistoric giants because of evidence, you believe it because of a bronze age mythology passed on by word of mouth and eventually penned thousands of years later, about 3000 yesrs ago, the otherside of the world in a desert. if that is where you start your thinking, bare in mind you are already in a different universe of what people classify as evidence, history and fact and there is literally no point in debating it....

    giants....... Seriously.........,giants?

    Snare

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    End of mysteries, you say the way humans were made by god is there final form... Can hou explain why we just like every other animal continue to evolve?

    you do understand evolution right? Random mutations being selected for by non random natural selection.... they both are 100% proven to take place and continue to do so.,

    Stop copying and pasting and go get some books if you sre sincerely interested because right now, you are ear deep in waters you don't comprehend.

    snare

    p.s. ........ Really..... Giants!?........

  • adamah
    adamah

    EoM said- the melanocyte count being fixed I believe in regards to once a person is born. Hence a black person won't ever become full white unless they have a michael jackson type disorder. However I don't believe it's fixed for generation upon generation over thousands of years.

    Uh, yeah: and that kind of SLOW CHANGE is exactly what evolution explains.

    BTW, notice that Darwin's theory of evolution didn't come from the theologians, LOL! They fought against it tooth-and-nail, long after it was reasonable to do so, arguing for a fixed state of creation for animals, plants, and humans. But now that it's undeniable, believers are chomping at the bit to add it back into Genesis?

    Too bad: come up with your own fantasy ideas to explain change over time (AKA descent with modification), since you cannot 'cherry-pick' from OURS, only taking ideas you WANT to believe when you're good and ready.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    snareandracket = define, 'final form'. When I say God created things in their final form, I am saying that when he was done, he did not personally change them after that.

    Actually to both you and adamah, my question is why do you think that if God created all life, that is must be completely unchanged from then on?

    If that's the case then the whole world can dismiss God if anybody goes to the beach and gets a tan, because according to snareandracket, they have changed their 'final form'. Or once a baby gets it's teeth, or as a person ages, since their 'final form' keeps changing each day.

    Or it's impossible that God would create life forms that would 'adapt' to their envirnments.

    If God did that, then you'd all be saying God is an idiot for not allowing things to adapt to climate changes, surroundings, etc, and everything just dies off.

    So why are you cherry picking adamah?

    There is a difference between those who believe in evolving as in 'adapting' vs evolving as in complete change of species.

    For example, humans have evolved creating what we call races based off of the amount and strength of sunlight exposure over generations upon generations.

    However, I don't believe that a human over thousands or millions of years would ever evolve into a bird or a crocodile.

    And I don't believe the opposite, that some goo or cell in a glass of water can evolve into all of the millions of different lifeforms on the earth over a trillion years or whatever you believe happened.

    You can't equate adapting to surroundings to spawning completely different forms of life as the same thing.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    snareracket - more replies to your last 2 posts...... so what you are really saying when you tell me to stop guessing and read it in a textbook is that you don't want any good challenges to your claims, since it's becoming increasingly difficult for you to rebuttal, and so instead of challenging you, just go ahead and tell whoever to come back after they spend the next 8 years getting a masters degree on that subject.

    In that case snareracket, why don't you stop guessing what the bible says and posting ANYTHING in a bible discussion, and read and study the entire book in hebrew interlinear or better yet learn hebrew and learn what is really says before you go making comments about what it teaches? How can you have so much conviction without any knowledge of what the bible really teaches? O that's right, because you listened to the faithful and discreet slave (Matt 24) and since they were wrong, it's all wrong.

    Nice try, cheap shot!

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    o I forgot to reply about the giants. Giants are just mythological is what you are saying? Andre the Giant was a figment of your imagination? (I know he had a disorder which caused that). Have you ever watched basketball? The point is, Goliath, or the giants (sons of anakim) that king david supposedly wiped out, could have very well existed. Are you denying that men 8 to 10, 12 feet could have existed?

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    TL:DR zinger - no god manages to transcend its culture. It is therefore true to say that no being worthy of the title of god has yet been discovered.

    The concept of beings greater than ourselves and able to do things we cannot is a fundamental aspect of our psyche ( possibly due to having evolved from animals with alpha male organisation - everyone else is subordinate.) We use that idea throughout our literature from Harry Potter throught to Allah. For an idea to survive it must be transferred to the children. Supernatural tales that are written down survive the passage of time best.

    Our supermen ( and most supernatural, super human imagined creatures are men and where the few women are elevated it normally revolves around their ability to create things) explain our culture and use elements of our world ( kids from an Amazonian jungle tribe would never conceive of Harry Potter.) No imagined being transcends or rejects the culture they were created in ( so hebrew god Yahweh is cool with animal sacrifice, genocide and slavery.)

    Each culture finds it easy to dismiss another cultures' supermen (JWs being 'Christian' and this site being in English gives us a westernised slice of the Christian worldview hence the gods we discuss here are Jehovah / Christ based. Even our forum believers would agree that Brahma is not real. Western civilisation and its embrace of science , rationality and logic has shattered the original hebrew god so thoroughly that it has had to reimagine it's gods ( hence we now discuss deistic gods within the same umbrella as the literal bible god.)

    When we discuss evidence for and against the god we are actually discussing evidence for and against the culture of that god. Thus it is almost impossible to not be rude ( a god wouldn't be fussed about underlings but a believer will quite rightly get offended when their imagination / culture is getting strongly critiqued) and to reach a satisfactory agreement. Once a believer becomes a preacher the emotional and social cost of failure become very, very high hence the number of people adamantly proclaiming that the emperor is clothed.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Yeah, TEC's right: that's a clear-cut example of an ad hominem, attacking the other person rather than challenging their argument - Adam

    No it wasn't, you are just too lazy to read the context of my comment or ask for clarification.

    Explaining how somebody came by an assertion is not ad homenem, it is a summary of years of discussing this very subject with Tammy and first hand knowledge of how she interacts with her mentor which you have no knowledge of.

  • tec
    tec

    Agreed tammy...christ tells us to continue knocking and it will be given to you. I search for truth. Truth is truth whether you want it to be or not.

    Yes.

    I am alsovery aware of the amount of energy one might need to create a human.

    To create Life, period, but yes.

    However i must add that if God saw fit to allow himans to live their life...the. What right does he have to destroy or torment them should they choose not to believe the evidence theyve seen when he allowed them to live.

    Or what if a person lives righteously but doesnt attribute this to God? Is he condemned like the wicked?

    Well the torment part does not exist. (I assume you mean a burning hell)

    Destruction (death), however, does exist. But the 'choosing' of who enters life and who does not has nothing to do with what the wts teaches, and also few churches. No one is prevented from entering the kingdom if they did not believe Christ or God existed.

    Those who are in union with Christ, who are his brothers, who are sealed (the 144000 of every tribe of Israel) and the 'great crowd' (those who are in union with Christ from every tribe and nation and language and tongue; true Christians)... these two have become one in Christ, and these ones rule with him in His Kingdom, for the thousand years.

    ALSO entering the kingdom, however, are the sheep. See the separation of the sheep and goats parable. These ones are NOT Christians. These are ones who did not know Christ, but enter because of the good that they did to even the least of his brothers, including those among the poor, the imprisoned, the hungry, the thirsty, the homeless. These ones do not know Christ... but are known BY Christ, because of their words and deeds. So these ones can be atheists, agnostics, men and women from other religions, etc; these are the SUBJECTS of the Kingdom.

    The goats are not permitted into the kingdom. Their own words and deeds judge them; and the measure that they use is used against them. They are not physically killed, else how would they be weeping and gnashing their teeth (jealousy, anger, regret, bitterness, hate, anger) in the OUTER darkness. Inside the Kingdom is the light; outside the kingdom is darkness (simply because Christ IS the light and He, and all who belong to Him, are IN the Kingdom; and they carry that light/life in themselves)

    But both the sheep and the goats are those who are NOT Christian. (though the goats may have thought that they were and so called themselves Christian: "Lord, lord, did we not prophecy in your name..." And He will say to them, "Away from me you evildoers, I never knew you!" )

    And of course upon resurrection of the dead after the thousand years... men are judged by their own words and deeds as recorded in their individual books. Some are resurrected to life (those whose names are written in the lamb's book of life), and some are resurrected to judgment (the second death)

    Sorry that is so long. I just wanted to be able to help you see. The bottom line is that Christians (and not all who call themselves Christians are christians) are gathered to Christ and rule with him in his kingdom for the thousand years. There is no judgment for them, His blood covers their sins. The subjects of the kingdom are from everyone else, and are judged according to their words/deeds/the measure that THEY used against others. So you can be a loving and forgiving and merciful person (righteous has to do with faith, beleiving and obeying) and not have believed in Christ and God, and be invited into the kingdom that was created for you since the beginning.

    My last question. If you knew a child was kidnapped and was going to be molested, tortured, and killed...and you had the knowledge and opportunity to act, would you?

    Of course. We are supposed to do that. Care for our fellow man. Man was given this world to govern. (though we hand that over to the adversary when we listen to him over God) Sometimes man listens to God who has taught and guided (now through Christ)... but too often man ignores God and Christ, and does his own thing, to the detriment of others. How many times does man turn a blind eye to something he knows is wrong and hurting others; how many times does that help to CREATE those who hurt others?

    Thats whats happening everyday out there. And God has the ability to stop it, yet he doesnt? Thats cruel to me. If god is all knowjng why didnt he stop the snake in the garden? Free will?

    It is our choice to listen or not to listen.

    The snake in the garden... the adversary (not an actual snake)... had no power except that which Adam gave him. Adam WANTED to eat from that tree; else he would have spoken up. Adam was not decieved.

    In any case, just as we are permitted to answer for ourselves when tempted... Adam and Eve were permitted to answer for themselves. Else God is telling them from the start before they had done anything wrong... you are not trustworthy. There is no love in that; that is judging a man guilty who has done nothing wrong. God told them what would happen if they ate; and they still ate. Some men will do anything to blame God for not stopping it; but when it comes right down to it, that is man refusing to take responsibility for himself and his actions.

    And yes, man does hurt others by his actions. But it is man doing so, and not God. Something that man does not understand. God does not DO the wrong. God is the one who will give life BACK to those that man has harmed.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    Adam and Eve - talking snakes. Really?

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