Maintaining Faith In God As An Ex-JW

by pronomono 73 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Exactly, Bohm. This is where these convos. break down. Trust that God will lead you, but don't trust men. All that is left is God. Bull crap.

  All that might be left is your own thoughts waiting for you to be convinced they are from God.

  Anyway, attempting to avoid the breakdown, don't just pray and meditate and know that God will guide you.

  Anytime someone is so sure that God/Jesus will answer their prayers and guide them, especially if you are sure he/they know what you need before you even know it, picture this (below) as you pray and/or wait for God/Jesus to "show up" in some way to tell you the truth:
  
  

  Edited to add: The most profound words I have heard from this person: "whether they realize it or not."
• 

  bohm

  tec:

  Its rather incredible you can argue against my post while providing my counter argument all within a few paragraphs.

  Tec: I KNOW my own thoughts as distinct from the Spirit. I know me. You don't, so it is understandable, especially being an atheist, that you would combine the two. But I know ME.

  Well, no. But thats besides the point, the point in my post is the people who shun do so because they believe they are getting instructions, messages, etc. from God -- exactly what you claim to do. So when you later say:

  Your statement above makes no sense. Listening to 8 men in brooklyn or a pope in rome is EXACTLY what they are doing, whether they realize it or not.

  You are not addressing what I said at all; You believe you get instructions, messages, etc. from god/jesus, they believe they are getting their instructions, messages, etc. from god/jesus. The only difference is the way it is claimed to be delivered. What I claim is that when a person believe he is getting his morals from god or jesus then the following applies:

  since you have come to believe your own thoughts are messages from Jesus you have both an overriding reason to let it trumpf other peoples wishes and well-being and you have put yourself in a very poor position to be reasoned with.

  You are free to live under the belief the lord of the universe want to be pen-palls with you but cant be arsed to provide clean water to the millions of people who desperately need it as we talk [Edit: OTWO: I posted this before I saw your post. I can see this image has affected us both]. But please don't pretend listening to ones inner voices provide a reliable way not to rely on men/women. Keep in mind you might actually convince someone who has less sensible moral intuitions than yourself this is the case.
• 

  cofty

  how many people once free of those men have not realized that... yeah, they were listening to men? - Tammy

  In precisely the same way that one day you might be free of your fixation on spirits and voices and realise it was all in your head.
• 

  tec

  Well, no. But thats besides the point, the point in my post is the people who shun do so because they believe they are getting instructions, messages, etc. from God -- exactly what you claim to do.

  But they don't think that Bohm. That is the point. There is no correlation. They have to trust that others are receiving such instructions from God... and they have to put their faith in men. And the book that they say their faith is based upon... itself... shows that they are not listening to Christ and His instruction, but to men. Because it is written there in black and white.

  My Lord would NOT teach to shun or show a lack of love, or not to forgive. He is not written as having ever taught that... and He does not teach it as the Spirit.

  You are not addressing what I said at all; You believe you get instructions, messages, etc. from god/jesus, they believe they are getting their instructions, messages, etc. from god/jesus. The only difference is the way it is claimed to be delivered.

  I am addresing what you said. That difference is HUGE. Because they are putting their trust in men to deliver them messages from God. And those messages are contrary even to what is written in the book they claim to follow; and especially contrary to the words of Christ.

  Do they test anything that their masters tell them? Against Christ, against love, against what is written?

  You cannot honestly tell me that they do.

  Now my two opposers above are going to say that I don't test also, perhaps. But I DO... I present it to some of you to test as well. You don't. Because there is no contradiction. You cannot prove that something I have said or shared, from the Spirit, is wrong... or even contrary to Christ and to love; and so attack something else.

  I have said many times, if you can prove that something I have said or shared from the Spirit is against Christ and against love, then I will at least have to admit that I heard wrong. But no one can.

  You want to know the validity of the source of a message... then test the message.

  Don't people test findings in science... (or test theories or the hypothesis or the statements)... to see if the theory/hypothesis/statements are valid... rather than the scientist reporting them?

  You are free to live under the belief the lord of the universe want to be pen-palls with you but cant be arsed to provide clean water to the millions of people who desperately need it as we talk [Edit: OTWO: I posted this before I saw your post. I can see this image has affected us both].

  Who says I can't be arsed to help others... in your scenario or in any other scenario? What do you know about what I may do for others in need? Nothing.

  I mean, I could say the same thing to you or others... you want to fight against harmful theism... but you can't be arsed to help others.

  That makes no more sense than you saying that my faith means I can't be arsed to help others.

  My faith directs me TO help.

  But please don't pretend listening to ones inner voices provide a reliable way not to rely on men/women. Keep in mind you might actually convince someone who has less sensible moral intuitions than yourself this is the case.

  I am not pretending any such thing. Not relying on men/women... is a reliable way not to rely upon men/women. Testing, thinking for yourself, examining the evidence, etc... these are reliable ways not to rely upon men/women. The whole reason I studied with the wts to begin with was because they were offering a bible study, and I was at that time trying to read the bible... so that i would know what was in it, so that no man could fool me into believing something that was NOT actually written.

  And what do you mean by a moral intuition here, Bohm?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Because they are putting their trust in men to deliver them messages from God.

  Alright. Even TEC can agree to this point: Trust nobody who says they have heard from God. They are just hearing voices in their own head as far as anyone else is concerned. They do not have a message from God unless that same message is delivered to YOU without the aid of people.

  That is perfectly in harmony with TEC's message, it's what I have been telling her. Then she proceeds to tell me that I am not genuine in wanting that message via some sort of insults about my anger or closed mind or pride or something. Nobody else knows ME and what I have been through or how open I have been to receive God's word in my heart.

  My point earlier was not to just assume God will tell you what the truth is, what you need. The boy drinking dirty water was a prime example of God remaining inactive in Man's needs. You would have to see your doctor if you started to think God was communicating to you. There may be other reasons for your belief. Even a good person with a good message could be generating the message themself and thinking the message passes some test that the same mind that dreams the voice comes up with to test the message.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  ...and this forum has tons of comments from those that have been presented the message of TEC or others from their Christ. It has been tested and failed. Search around.
• 

  yadda yadda 2

  The only thing that would perhaps restore my faith is if I had some kind of supernatural Christian religious experience that utterly convinced me of the existence of a supernatural realm. It wouldn't necessarily convince me that the traditional God of the Bible does exist after all, but it would convince me that there is something 'out there' that is messing around with us. I do think that inexplicable phenomenon such as seeing 'ghosts', speaking in tongues, stigmata, etc, give us some some reason for not entirely discounting the possibility of a supernatural realm/extra-dimensional reality of some sort.
• 

  bohm

  Well tammy, that was a whole lot of ignoring the point. To put it together in two paragraphs so it become less easy to miss:

  You believe you get instructions, messages, etc. from god/jesus, they believe they are getting their instructions, messages, etc. from god/jesus. The only difference is the way it is claimed to be delivered.

  When a person has come to believe he is being instructed by God, this provide an overriding reason to let it trumpf other peoples wishes and well-being and put them in a very poor situation to be reasoned with.

  I think your objections completely misses those points. For instance you claim it makes a big difference that you get your instructions from God/jesus through voices/the bible whereas the average jw or person of some other religion believe (and this is the important point) he get it from God/jesus through some organization/the bible or whatever.

  This does not affect anything I wrote at all.

  What you claim to be from god ofcourse provide a better guide than what come out from brooklyn; i never claimed anything else. The issue is once one allow oneself to think one get instructions from God that change ones ability to assess and reason about the moral content of the instructions. I think thats an important point to be made in the light that there are plenty of people who "recieve" less sensible instructions than you do.

  As to the testing bit, well, its quite plain you do not test your voices in any meaningful way. As far asking me to test it, I just asked God to turn of the light if you were correct, the light did not turn off, ergo...

  Tammy: Who says I can't be arsed to help others.

  I never said such an evil thing and I do not believe it is the case at all. Please read what I wrote again and consider the accusation.

  Tammy: Not relying on men/women... is a reliable way not to rely upon men/women

  See above.

  And what do you mean by a moral intuition here, Bohm?

  What one considers to be right or wrong.
• 

  tec

  I am still not ignoring the point. They are going to a mediator OTHER than Christ (who is the truth, the image, the word... the ONLY mediator between man and god)... and so are following the mediator they have chosen to put their faith in. (the pope, the priest, the GB, the RCC, the 'whatever'). But their mediator contradicts Christ... the ONLY mediator... and so that should be a clue that they are not listening to Christ.

  I don't get instructions from god/jesus... through voices/bible.

  I listen to Christ, period. Not through any other medium. There is no one in that organization who will make that claim. They make vague 'holy spirit' guidance (that reverses, and such). But even if someone DID make that claim (and for you or anyone else reading, even though I make that claim)... you should test what is being said against Christ and against love. And you should never follow another person even if they are listening to and following Christ and the things they hear and share ARE true... you should follow CHRIST. For yourself.

  No one who says, "come to ME... or listen to ME"... is speaking so from what they have learned from Christ or God. False christs say come to me... witnesses to Christ say go to Christ, and, "Come... take the free gift of the water of life" (which life is something you receive from Christ... not from men)

  What you claim to be from god ofcourse provide a better guide than what come out from brooklyn; i never claimed anything else. The issue is once one allow oneself to think one get instructions from God that change ones ability to assess and reason about the moral content of the instructions. I think thats an important point to be made in the light that there are plenty of people who "recieve" less sensible instructions than you do.

  Okay, I believe I understand what you are saying.

  It is true that some may do this, but it should not be this way. Because if something heard is ever against Christ and against love... then it is NOT true, and the person hearing should absolutely question and/or disregard what was heard, as coming from another source, even if that is just a lie that they want to believe based on their own desires or lack of love or anger or hatred, etc.

  As to the testing bit, well, its quite plain you do not test your voices in any meaningful way. As far asking me to test it, I just asked God to turn of the light if you were correct, the light did not turn off, ergo...

  LOl.

  But that is not the testing that I have spoken of. Test what is heard against Christ, against love, and against what is written (beginning with Christ of course because He is the truth).

  That is not going to mean anything to an atheist. I understand that. But for someone who has faith in Christ, those are the means to test if something someone has shared comes from (or at least could have come from) God (through Christ). Or if it is againt Christ and love, then that person has spoken presumptiously and from their own reasoning or from another 'father'.

  I never said such an evil thing and I do not believe it is the case at all. Please read what I wrote again and consider the accusation.

  I reread. Sorry, Bohm, I misunderstood. Your point is to the question of the presence of evil. That is a big thread. I can go there with you, but probably already have done so somewhere. The simple point is that it is man's decisions that have led to suffering such as the above, and other conditions like starvation, wars, many diseases, etc. Man's lack of love for his fellow man. Man's desire to rule over his fellow man. Man's NOT listening to Christ and God and their instruction. But listening rather to his own ambitions, his own needs, his own desires... all to the detriment of his fellow man.

  What one considers to be right or wrong.

  Okay, but then I don't really understand what you mean by me being able to convince someone (of what?) if they have a less sensible moral intuition... Oh. You mean I might convince someone that they are getting their morals from Christ, but their morals are terrible and cause harm?

  All I can say to that... is that if someone listens to PART of the message (Christ is alive and speaks)... and ignores the FULL message (that nothing Christ ever speaks will be against love or Christ (and one can test against what He is written to have said and done), and that He will never tell you to harm another person, but rather to forgive and to show mercy; as He did the same)... well, this is someone who is still NOT listening, and is just acting out on what is in them, using Christ as an excuse. Again, no one should listen to them.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  bohm

  Tammy: if something heard is ever against Christ and against love... then it is NOT true, and the person hearing should absolutely question and/or disregard what was heard, as coming from another source, even if that is just a lie that they want to believe based on their own desires or lack of love or anger or hatred, etc.

  Well, I dont think there is any christian who will say he will accept something if it is against christ or love. The problem is this: The standard of what is love become part of the beliefs and in this case constitute love is a very fluid concept. To take an illustration from the bible for once, jesus talked about putting a sword between people and splitting families, paul could be harsh, etc.

  Okay, but then I don't really understand what you mean by me being able to convince someone (of what?) if they have a less sensible moral intuition... Oh. You mean I might convince someone that they are getting their morals from Christ, but their morals are terrible and cause harm?

  No, I simply mean that if I want to justify my actions, i need to do it from either what i desire or from what other people desire. If I want to do something that hurt a person, that means i have to commit to my desires being more important than his, or that he is unable to determine what is good for him.

  A person who believe his moral intuitions are (at least partly) from god can be free to do terrible things not because he like to do them, but because he feel God want him to do it. This is why we have otherwise good people shunning other people because they love the person.

  This type of danger is also present in other non-theistic systems.

  I know you would never do this because it is fundamentally in contradiction to your moral instincts and so you would never hear it. but the same sort of danger exist regardless if one get ones moral from an organized religion (and check against what it tells a person what "love" means) or one gets morals from an inner voice (and check against what that voice claim "love" means).