If man evolved?

by tornapart 427 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle
    If man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago? Surely there'd have been many billions by then?

    tornapart - good question. I' going to take up my reply from when man had become fully human for arguments sake (evolution itself is being covered already). So to come at it from a different angle I put murder and war as my top two reasons why there were only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 yrs ago. Next I'd say natural disasters.

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Tornapart,

    "I know anyone who believes in evolution is going to say that there is no 'if' about it. However..."

    Evolution is of course a scientific theory that explains the origin of species. Like all scientific theories it should be believed based on its ability to explain and predict things we find in the natural world. Nonetheless there are still many specific things about the arrival of a given species such as us (homo sapiens) that still being discovered.

    "If man evolved over hundreds of thousands of years ago, why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago? Surely there'd have been many billions by then?"

    I think it would be helpful to break your question up here a bit. Please bear with me.

    "If man evolved" seems to imply a single event in time that happened then remained static. I am the father of four children, each of my girls is 1 evolutionary generation from me. My first born has now given birth to my first grandchild, who is 2 evolutionary generations from me. I have found it best to think of evolution as a continuum, wherein 1 generation to the next always continues to be of the same species, but there is no specific hard barriers that would prevent a given line of descent from accumulating enough DNA difference to qualify as a genuinely new species.

    "over hundres of thousands of years ago" is based on the initial study of DNA that is passed through females only. The mitochondrial DNA you have should be nearly identical to your mother and her mother, etc. Only mutations can effect this DNA. Based on estimates of the rate of mutational changes to this DNA it was worked out that homo sapiens are in the range of 100,000 to 250,000 years old. Since then a sequence of DNA unique to the Y chromosome has been used to cross-check this work. The Y-chromosome DNA of course passes through the male line only and is unaffected by DNA from the mother. The two studies build confidence in the 100K to max 250K numbers.

    "why were there only about 200-300 million people alive 2,000 years ago?" This is a question about population dynamics. One part of the answer is the power of exponential growth of a population left unchecked by other forces. Thus humans were able to move their population number from 1 billion to 7 billion in little over 100 years! If we imagine human population was very small 100K years ago, perhaps as little as a few thousand it takes time and some good fortune to take that number up to the range of 100s of millions. Some have already suggested forces that would keep a population in check, such as disease, disasters and competition for resources, etc. However, I think it is kinda interesting to look at the flip side of this problem. If the human population was being kept in check with very little upward movement what might have released the flood gates of growth?

    A fun documentary to watch on this subject is "How Beer Made the World." It is a bit tongue and cheek, but it does touch upon what must have certainly been a few of the major factors. The ending of the last ice age created a favorable conditions for humans to learn to farm. Small but significant mutations may also be very recent such as the FOXP2 sequence combined with increased brain power unleashing our ability to communicate and thus drive our numbers up. Even the act of cooking food, which is connected fire, has been seen by some as a key to allowing human brain power to increase.

    What you're doing though is good. In considering any scientific theory we should look for ways to kill it. In fact for a theory to qualify as scientific there must be some method to show it is false. If DNA mutation and recombination were impossible, for example, it would deal a severe blow to the theory of evolution. Time and reproduction rates are also important, if enough time were not available or reproduction rates too low, evolution would be in trouble as a theory. Your question is there too much time, such that we should expect higher population numbers, is a good question and without a proper answer might get our understanding of life on earth in trouble.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • man oh man
    man oh man

    The post about expotential growth is a very good one. But the timing factor I think says it all. 200 thousand years of humanity and it only took 100 years to go from 1 billion to 7 billion. It is also hard to trust a study on DNA since most scientific studies are often countered by newer scientific studies.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    tornapart - "If man evolved..."

    ...then the Creation narrative in Genesis can't be literal history...

    ...therefore, Adam wasn't real...

    ...therefore, he couldn't have committed "Original/Adamic Sin"...

    ...therefore, humanity isn't actually "Fallen" (nor did it ever possess some form of "quasi-divine" status)...

    ...therefore, humanity didn't need any "Ransom Sacrifice/Substitutionary Atonement" to balance the scales of cosmic justice...

    ...therefore, Jesus of Nazareth - whether he was God Himself, God's Son, or just a regular guy - didn't "die for our sins"...

    ...therefore, Christianity as Biblical literalists including JWs understand it has no reason to exist.

    And that is simply unacceptable to them.

    As the vast majority of fundamentalist Christians are conservative, and one of the foundation axioms of conservatism itself is that humanity is - for all intents and purposes - inherently flawed, Christianity (as they understand it, mind you) absolutely needs to exist, therefore, Jesus must have been of divine origin and did die for our sins as a Ransom Sacrifice, to restore the imbalance caused by Adam and (arguably more importantly) restore humanity to its alleged quasi-divine status...

    ...therefore evolution must be wrong.

    This is the underlying motivation why Christian fundamentalists cannot accept it, no matter how much they couch their arguments in scientific terminology, or arguments for evidence of intelligent design, etc.

    Evolution is rejected for ideological reasons.

    Sorry; went off-topic, there.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Note how we are going to level off in about 40 years:

    Pop Growth

    What happens next, I believe, is the green line (bell curve).

    Future Growth

    In the past, like all creatures, we experienced population "corrections" by way of famine and disease.

    We could ask ourselves, if creatures have had millions of years to evolve, why they aren'tallsuper-populating the planet? Because we are all competing for the same resources, that's why. Consider rabbits, cats, mice, and turtles. One of their survival strategies is to make many, many babies in the hopes that at least one will survive to procreate. It works.

    Where living conditions have become secure in industrialized nations, birth rates have dropped significantly. In Japan and Canada for instance, we are experiencing negative population growth. As security increases, our mad drive to procreate decreases.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    " Why are we spoon-feeding you facts? "

    Oh, puhhleeeaze!! Get real! As you have said time and again, a quick internet search is something anyone can do. So I don't need your spoon. Besides, you guys love to talk about what you know. You should thank me.

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    jgnat I love your chart, wow, really shows how population has exploded.

  • tornapart
    tornapart

    Thanks for all your answers everyone, they've been very interesting to read and some good explanations

    Thanks especially to Randy for your in depth answer, you make some thought provoking points and I really appreciate the gracious way you've put your points over and for not making me feel stupid a time waster for asking the question.

    Vidot, you make some good points about christianity.

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    twitch - lol

    did you tickle it or use a rod ?

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    dogs

    there are over 300 breeds of dog.

    From the huge Great Dane - down to the itsy bitsy cure little Chiuahiua ( i prob spelled that wrong)

    They all breed to type. You cannot out cross them and retain the breed.

    When you x a boxer, you lose the face, everytime.

    There is a breed of dog with a 'naturally' docked tail. (short)

    A british vet through generations of selective breeding, bred the short tail into the boxer breed. ( most people don't like boxers with their natural tail legth)

    Now, his boxers breed true to type, with bob tails, and are allowed to be registered with the Kennel Club.

    Many breeds of dog are now endangered, due to the many health issues that have resulted from excessive in-breeding.

    Yet the Kennel club has refused to be active and address the matter.

    I find gene diversity fascintating in that you can selective breed different types within a species.

    But I have yet to see any evidence of successful cross-species breeding and reproduction.

    Has anyone else ?

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