If Jehovah Can Read Hearts Then WHY

by BlindersOff1 301 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento

    The issue with Abe being "tested" is an interestingone because, as we are told, God tests no one.

    So the test wasn't for God ( God knew what was gonna happen, hince the angel), it seems that it was more for Abe's benefit, maybe to prove to himself that No command from God is too great.

    That said, it doesn't seem that Abe thought that that His son was going to die.

    Genesis 22:

    The Offering of Isaac

    22 Now it came about after these things, that (A) God tested Abraham, and said to him, “ (B) Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take now (C) your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of (D) Moriah, and offer him there as a (E) burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him and Isaac his son; and he split wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. 5 Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and (F) laid it on Isaac his son, and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” And he said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the (G) lamb for the burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

    9 Then they came to (H) the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built (I) the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and (J) laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But (K) the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now (L) I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld (M) your son, your only son, from Me.” 13 Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. 14 Abraham called the name of that place The Lord Will Provide, as it is said to this day, “In the mount of the Lord (N) it will be provided.”

    15 Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “ (O) By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord , because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly (P) multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as (Q) the sand which is on the seashore; and (R) your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 (S) In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have (T) obeyed My voice.” 19 (U) So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham lived at Beersheba.

    A important and often overlooked point is here:

    4 On the third day Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. 5 Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go over there; and we will worship and return to you.”

    Note that Abe says they wil worship AND return to them.

    Seems like Abe felt that, whatever may happen, they woudl return.

    IMO, this is quite possibly more a story then fact, a story to show the resolve of Abe, his total trust in God's promise.

    BUT even if it was fact, what we have here is a case of Abe knowing that God would be true to His promise and that a great nation would come from Him and Isaac.

    It seems to me that God asked Abe to offer the ultimate sacrfifce because he wanted Abe to know that He was ABLE to do all that God commanded and that God would be with him, no matter what that command was.

  • BlindersOff1
  • AGuest
    Firstly the story is talking about Jehovahs example in what he commands. Are we saying Jehovah was evil because man on earth in the Middle East, had stupid cruel customs?

    Ummmm... not sure who you mean by "we", dear mp (peace to you!). I didn't say "Jehovah" was evil. I didn't even imply that. I suggested that such sacrifices may have been made during the time and so might not have been considered evil,

    Im sorry this just makes the story completely human, you have just admitted that Jehovah is the product of human thoughts and customs. No goodness or anything.

    Ummmm... I'm sorry, I'm not following. I don't ascribe the account to "Jehovah", at all. So not sure what you mean, here.

    You have just admitted that Jehovah is hardly a beacon we should look for inspiration or as an example of what we should copy and try and achieve. In plain simple English, Jehovah in the OT is a class one axxhole, who makes other aXXholes like Hitler look like a saint. This of course goes perfectly with why the OT is pathetic.

    Again, not following. Are you still addressing my comments? If so... care to comment on this... and it's potential "evil-ness"?


    Again, I am NOT anti-abortion/pro-choice. I have no opinion one way or the other. I just find it curious that you think asking one man to ALMOST put to death his son... close to 6,000 years ago... is "evil"... in comparison to the many, many sons... and daughters... that are ACTUALLY sacrificed today... without anyone even asking their fathers... or mothers... to do so, today.

    I just don't get the whole "judging" thing, here. I mean, seems just a tad bit skewed, IMHO. Me? I don't judge those who kill their children today... nor a man (or his God)... who may have almost killed his son more than 5,000 years ago. Just seems so... hypocritical, IMHO... to do so, take offense over something that occurred so long ago... and involved three or less persons... and no one actually died (heck, no one was even harmed)... yet, take no offense over something occurring TODAY... involving MILLIONS of people... and a good many of them actually dying (well, never being born - a sacrifice, either way).



    A slave of Christ,


  • PSacramento

    Interesting view point Shelby...

  • AGuest

    Well, here's the thing, dear P (the greatest of love and peace to you, my dear brother!): we... man... WANT to look for ways to attribute UNrighteousness to God... while excusing our OWN unrighteousness. But that's because we are unrighteous... and so we look for ourselves in God ! As some say, "god" is the construct of man. Indeed, most are... except One, the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, who is the TRUE God (which is why He refers to Himself as such).

    Even many who profess to be "believers" attribute unrighteousness to God. That's what much of the OT is about, along with all of that "You're gonna burn in Hell," "He killed Adham/Eve for eating from the Tree!" melarkey. These are lies... borne of what man sees in GOD... because of what is in MAN. You may recall, when given the choice, David chose to receive his consequences from JAH... than to be delivered to the hand of man. Why? Because JAH... is merciful.

    But the way God sees is NOT the way man sees (and hence, why some of "us" might not think "like" a lot of man does). To see how GOD sees... man must look to CHRIST. Indeed, to SEE God... if man would truly SEE God... he would look the Christ... because that One is the image OF God. And in doing so they would see... truly... what God did ... and didn't do... and WHY... regardless of what is recorded (in the Bible). Because they would see what CHRIST would do/ wouldn't do.

    Including that the MOST Holy One of Israel would never have LET Abraham kill Isaac... because it would have been an UNrighteous act to do so!

    On the other hand, killing the firstborn of Pharaoh was a RIGHTEOUS act.. because Pharaoh... was WARNED. Repeatedly, and initially kindly and patiently. But finally... severely. Like some might think, say, Saddam Hussein was. Yet, he (Pharaoh) would not show himself merciful... to Israel and its sons. Why? Because... Pharaoh thought himself a god! And from man's POV, especially one who views himself a god... one does not SHOW mercy to one's "subjects"! We can know this because, as we can see, man, for the most part, is NOT merciful! Think of all of the people who died because of Saddam's Hussein's alleged possession of WMD's and alleged cahoots with Osama bin Laden. Innocent women, children, and elderly... because the mortars, missiles, and bombs... didn't discriminate (of course, some among man can see the reason for the death brought on by THAT...even as to people who may not have even known what the heck was going on, let along took part it in... but in some eyes, they were nothing more than "casualities of war.' Just as some others can see the reason for deaths brought on by abortion, etc.).

    But let God ask a man to sacrifice ONE of his sons... with absolutely NO intent of letting him actually carry it out... and...O...M...G! The evil sumagun!

    The "god" Pharaoh did not show mercy to True God, JAH of Armies... by not showing it to the PEOPLE of that One (think Saul of Tarsus "persecuting" Christ!). So no mercy was shown to HIM, or by connection, HIS people. Pharaoh and HIS "house" received no mercy... because he didn't WANT any mercy. From his POV... "gods" weren't merciFUL.

    Had he shown Israel mercy, however, HE would have been shown mercy. Because to the extent he did it to the least one of Israel... he would have been doing it to JAH. And he did, by means of his lack of mercy.

    It blows my MIND how we (man) can "see" all KINDS of bad in the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... but not in himself. Even more so, in the former one for an "almost" act... while turning a blind eye to the millions of actual acts.

    Earthling man... sumpin' wrong with his (way of) thinking, IMHO.

    Again, peace to you!

    YSSFS of Christ,


  • EntirelyPossible

    Perhaps it was a teaching opportunity. That the point was not only the faith of Abraham -who knew because of God's promise that God was going to make him into a great nation through Isaac, and so he knew that God could/would give Isaac life to fulfill His promise.

    Awesome. Perhaps it would be a good idea to teach my kids to trust me by handing them an unloaded gun and telling them to point at each other and pull the trigger. Teach them to trust me when I say they won't be harmed.

  • Mr. Falcon
  • AGuest
    Perhaps it would be a good idea to teach my kids to trust me by handing them an unloaded gun and telling them to point at each other and pull the trigger. Teach them to trust me when I say they won't be harmed.

    Well, it's not like you would be the first yahoo in the world... or even in the USA... to try that "method." You certainly wouldn't be the last.

    A slave of Christ,


    Edited to add: You could like the many other [yahoos]... who don't even HAVE a lesson to teach in killing their children... except that perhaps they're (the children) are a bit of an inconvenience on such yahoo's life ("Well, Timmy, the timing's "just not 'right, right now" - I still got things I want/need to do... so you gotta die"). Or some similar very valid, justifiable, and totally understandable reason. Shoot, what WAS God THINKING... only wanting ONE child to be sacrificed... and THEN not even letting old Abe go through with it! If you ask ME, the real "crime" here... was getting Ishmael's hopes all up... letting him think he had a shot at the inheritance... only to turn around and go, "Oh, wup, uh, no... God changed Him and decided to let Isaac live! Too bad for YOU!" No FAIR, I tell ya! Sigh... really, now...

  • EntirelyPossible

    Your god was the first yahoo. Congrats.

  • tec

    Awesome. Perhaps it would be a good idea to teach my kids to trust me by handing them an unloaded gun and telling them to point at each other and pull the trigger. Teach them to trust me when I say they won't be harmed.

    I don't think these things are equal.

    In any case, Christ told his followers to find a sword and then when Peter used it, used that to teach him NOT to live by the sword. Some people need to experience/see something before they can understand the lesson, and others can learn something from that. Including a lesson on faith.



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