by Terry 120 Replies latest watchtower bible
Question for Christians.
Have you tried being informed/interested in any other Major Religion such as Islam, Judaism, Confucianism etc? Have you studied with the same honest inquiry as with Christianity?
What are the odds you just happened to be born in the right time and place and country etc. to find Christianity so amenable?
Just askin'
for example can everyone here including me, honestly say that we never lusted after someone other than our mate?
Ironically, the same lust is what you made you mates in a first place.
Even more ironically, the same god that we "need" to make us right found it prefectly fine to act upon such lust where polygamy is practiced...
Am I missing something?
new chapter: i dont think thats a far statement, can you honestly say that i dont love people, i love ppl alot, if you believe it or not im here talking because i love ppl, i cryed friday because i love ppl, im going through hell in my family because i love ppl, when you say evil you make it sound as if im putting ppl in some catogry as serail killers, what im saying is we are so sinfull we can not even control our thinking many times, yes lust may have got two people together,but what does it do to ppl who are married, lust outside of your mate causes many bad things ,but yet who here has not had sexual thoughts at all for another while being married? its sin you call it human i call it sinful human.
Have you tried being informed/interested in any other Major Religion such as Islam, Judaism, Confucianism etc? Have you studied with the same honest inquiry as with Christianity?
...I actually did study other religions when I left the JW faith...I started attending a Unitarian Church and they have world religion classes....I attended for 3 years and still visit frequently.
I actually enjoyed learning about other faiths...but can honestly say I was not looking for a religion when I was saved by Christ.
I don't think anyone can understand until you have your spiritual experience...But after I was saved my life has been nothing but Joy (and when I say joy...I'm mean, no matter what life circumstances may bring...I can still find joy).
I love my faith and so I can say my belief in Christ brings me JOY...LOVE and undescribable PEACE.
I have so many testamonies of the Goodness of the Lord...What he has done for my life!!! I cannot express in words...But it is wonderful!!!!
God Bless!!!
new chapter: i dont think thats a far statement, can you honestly say that i dont love people, i love ppl alot, if you believe it or not im here talking because i love ppl, i cryed friday because i love ppl, im going through hell in my family because i love ppl, when you say evil you make it sound as if im putting ppl in some catogry as serail killers, what im saying is we are so sinfull we can not even control our thinking many times, yes lust may have got two people together,but what does it do to ppl who are married, lust outside of your mate causes many bad things ,but yet who here has not had sexual thoughts at all for another while being married? its sin you call it human i call it sinful human.
Of course you love people, I didn't make a statement otherwise. And yet, you DO believe that people are basically evil in need of a savior. Evil being relative, some people are more evil than others, and I know you can distinguish, but at our base you see our thoughts and impulses as evil. You see humans as fallen. I'm saying that it is perfectly normal to look at someone other than your spouse and lust a bit. It does not make one bad or evil, and it is not a sin. What a person does with such is completely up to how they wish to affect others. So while you are ready to say everyone is a sinner for lusting, I simply say, oh well, human nature.
And it's important to note that not all marriages follow the Christian guidelines. So what may be very hurtful in one marriage is not hurtful in another. It all depends on what each person expects and how they want to live. So we can't say what is wrong for another person is wrong for every person, because not all actions cause the same reactions. It depends on each situation.
But your way introduces a lot of shame into the equation. A person must feel guilty for a totally normal human emotion, even if they don't allow that emotion to overtake them and they consider their actions. In your eyes, they have already sinned. Which is a damned shame! The REASON nobody can claim they've never lusted is because it is NORMAL. You have turned normal into sinful, and therefore, set everyone up to be sinners. What they do with that normal emotion should be a reflection of their own values and those they affect. I know couples that are not monogomous. They just aren't, and it's really not a huge issue for them. Many people will judge them, but they don't judge each other, and they don't doubt their love for each other. You would call them sinful, but they really aren't hurting each other. Why should I care? Why should I convince them they should change simply because it is not how I would do things? Why should I bend over backwards to tell people who seem just fine that they should hate themselves and their nature on some level?
Outside of the Judeo/Christian model, there are many cultures that don't necessarily hold monogomy as some holy standard. They do fine. They are still here, and their children are cared for. As I've said before, read a little. Read some anthropology. Look into other cultures and learn how very healthy societies actually function quite well without your god, or your morals. They have their own.
I know this is not getting through to you, because you have a fundamentalist view. Your way is the right way because it is your god's way and your god is the only god and all that jazz. But maybe one day it will. Moral codes tend to be artificial and are a way to help society function and be cohesive. What is wrong in one culture is not wrong in others. So there is not the expected damage in one place from certain actions. If you live in a culture where it is rather typical and even expected that marriage mates will not be monogomous, then nobody is devastated when they aren't monogomous. You would like to point to the hurt, and I get that, but I can also point to where there is no hurt. Which just shows that your moral code is not needed everywhere, nor does it work for everyone. We are not sinful. We are human. We are diverse. We have natural emotions. We make decisions based on our own values. In that regard, I believe I trust and respect humans a great deal more than you do. I'm okay letting them carve out their lives to live by what they think is right.
And before we get into slippery slope arguments, societites all agree that actions that are hurtful in any context, murder, theft, etc are wrong. We are not so weak minded that if we remove one prohibition we will slide into pure and unrestrained decadence. I'm not so sure you believe that.
new chapter: first thanks for you reply, some dont reply and its nice that you always seem to, you mention its human nature to lust abit, and i agree ,were we disagree is that is it wrong , and if im understanding you right its only wrong if it breaks and agreement that the couple have, if a couple are both okay than no harm no foul. i think this is what your saying. so lets go farther than, you agree that murder is wrong, what has to happen before a person murders? he has to think about it even if its not planned before a person pulls a trigger he thinks im going to pull the trigger, or what ever they do. that being said have you ever wanted somebody dead even if it was when you were mad that thought came into ur mind. im not saying you would do it,your are a very nice person from what i know of you. but the same thought has to happen before a murder happens. and most likely you would feel bad for thinking somebody dead. where does that guilt come from. some dont think murder is wrong, but it does not change the fact that it is.and again thanks for your replys, its get old texting on this phone when some dont reply. just this took me 20 mins to text.
thank god i dont believe in god.
... i guess it gives a decent bed time story...?
RandomNoise
We should always be careful when we say moral codes are artificial or relative.
There is such a thing as absolute morals, at least I believe so.
random who are you thanking?
Have you tried being informed/interested in any other Major Religion such as Islam, Judaism, Confucianism etc?
Yes, dear Ter (peace to you!). Islam extensively (starting with a stint in the late 70's, and so returning to what I had learned then), but also Judaism (because of my heritage). Confucianism, Buddhim, Taoism, starting with what was insinuated about them in that WT publiction about religions (a burgundy/red book - I can't recall the name just now, but it was one of the first things I did when I left - researched to see if what they said about these was true. Some of it is; some of it isn't. There is a lot they don't know and only opined on). Then Greek Orthodox, Anglican, LDS, SDA, Catholicism, and various "Protestant" denominations... due to what I was hearing/learning from my Lord about them and what I should know about them. Which includes that ALL religions are tied together in some way/form. Most come out of some system of religion before it.
I also was interested because, having left the WTBTS and so now more freer to associate with others, I had family, friends, loved ones, co-workers, neighbors, professors, classmates... all of whom I thought were [very] "good" people... who hailed from these. For these two reasons (Christ and these people), I tried to take every Philosphy/Religious Studies class I could fit into my schedule in university. Sometimes, I would forego a class I needed for my major to take a Religous Studies class. And I wanted to use what I learned for no other reason than my own knowledge and understanding.
And I learned a LOT... probably more than some who practice these know about their own religion (which is often the case with JWs). As I have shared before, attending university didn't wreck my faith - it only strengthened it.
Have you studied with the same honest inquiry as with Christianity?
I think so... and still do to some extent (because I still ask so as to TRULY understand). I realize that it might not seem like it, but along with ancient languages... religion and philosophy are VERY interesting topics to me (the three kind of go together, in many instances). Because, again, they really are all tied by one or more common threads. Even many of the "pagan" ones (many... not all... so cool your jets, pagans).
What are the odds you just happened to be born in the right time and place and country etc. to find Christianity so amenable?
I cannot answer for anyone else but myself, but I DIDN'T find christianity "so" amenable. I am a black woman, Ter, and a descendant from slaves... and a child of California USA during 60s-70s. For my peers, "christianity" was the religion of white folks and old/country/slave mentality black folks. Indeed, much of modern "christianity" among African Americans was LEARNED as a result of the institution of slavery (it was what made them "human" and in line for "salvation", which was used to help the cause of abolition). Much like it was for native Americans (in the eyes of the Spanish). They didn't COME here with it. If I truly wanted to know who I was... I would have to go back farther than Protestantism (some denomination of which is the primary religion of African Americans).
In that search, I could not discount Judaism (even more, since I am Israel, from the tribe of Ben-Jah-Min (Judah)... and thus, by blood... a Jew - it was how I was found by my Lord - Abraham's blood in me) and so looked there, as well, to the extent my Lord directed me. I realize there are several factions of Judaism today (i.e., ultra Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) and so no I have not studied all of them. I see no need, as none are the form originally established (contrary to claims they each might make).
Like modern Judaism (indeed, all religion), "Christianity" is what man has made it, what man defines, dear one. It is not what Christ started... nor what he foments to this day.
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
