"Right to bear arms" should mean ...

by Simon 616 Replies latest members politics

• 

  besty

  So, another way to put it is in the UK the rate is 0.00006 and in the US it's 0.0009. Just making it clear that how you frame numbers makes them look either REALLY big or REALLY small.

  6 guns per 100 people could be expressed as 6/100 or 0.06 - not sure where you get the extra zeros from...

  On the other hand, the per capita death rates are expressed per 100,000 people because these events are relatively rare.

  The reason I said non-linear acceleration is because the USA has 15x per capita gun ownership and yet much more than 15x firearm deaths - USA firearm homicides are 74x, suicides are 34x and accidental deaths are 27x the equivalent per capita figures for the UK.

  If you had 15x guns in circulation and 15x gun-related deaths that would 'make sense', and I would suggest reducing gun ownership may reduce death rates.

  However, the USA has 74x firearm homicide rate - a 5x non-linear multiplier. With that in mind...

  ...if you care to, please explain to me why we should adopt US- style gun laws here in the UK.
• 

  Max Divergent

  Guns are more convinient and efficient for killling than automobiles. Guns fit in a pocket and can be used over and over, but cars are big and get broken if they hit too many things. Knives are messy and you have to get up close and personal, with a gun you can keep you distance a bit and might not get too much blood on you. Spoons are slow.

  Maybe cars, knives and spoons are big problems though, don't get me wrong. But misuse of guns and the prevelence of guns is a seperate issue and obsufication is the only reason I can see to discuss all four of these deadly tools in one thread.
• 

  tim hooper

  No point in comparing gun death statistics between the UK and the US. There's totally different cultures involved here, many of which seem incomprehensible to the other. The gun ownership thing is just one part of the differing culture.

  Americans would equate a ban on firearms as an attack on their basic freedoms. Their's still much of the pioneering spirit in the USA that involves huntin' shootin' and fishin' - but also the freedom to blast the sh*t out of intruders and criminals. Americans are generally OK with that, Europeans aren't. Sometimes the cost of that "freedom" can be horrendous as is the case in point.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  6 guns per 100 people could be expressed as 6/100 or 0.06 - not sure where you get the extra zeros from...

  Oh, I misread that and thought you meant gun deaths per 100K. Those numbers seems really whacky to me, hence my saying I would go back and look at them. In my defense, when I read that I was out of bed for 15 minutes and waiting for my coffee to steep :)

  Thanks for the correction. I will still go back and look, now that I am more awake.

  ...ff you care to, please explain to me why we should adopt US- style gun laws here in the UK.

  I don't care to as I am not taking that position ;)

  But misuse of guns and the prevelence of guns is a seperate issue and obsufication is the only reason I can see to discuss all four of these deadly tools in one thread.

  Or to point out that, in terms of the number of people that are killed by them, cars are far more dangerous yet, because people like them so very much and the deaths are a at a pretty consistent rate, there is no outrage. The point being that it's not about how many people die AT all, it's about how.
• 

  besty

  No point in comparing gun death statistics between the UK and the US. There's totally different cultures involved here, many of which seem incomprehensible to the other. The gun ownership thing is just one part of the differing culture. Americans would equate a ban on firearms as an attack on their basic freedoms. Their's still much of the pioneering spirit in the USA that involves huntin' shootin' and fishin' - but also the freedom to blast the sh*t out of intruders and criminals. Americans are generally OK with that, Europeans aren't. Sometimes the cost of that "freedom" can be horrendous as is the case in point.

  In which case we have nothing to learn from each other?

  I get that there are cultural differences, having been resident in both countries I am very aware of that :-)

  I agree that the 2nd Amendment as interpreted today grants personal freedoms. But where acting in personal self-interest outweighs the collective benefit to society at large there is a risk of 'tragedy of the commons' outcomes, and I think that is where the USA is heading.

  More and more people feel the need and the right to 'weapon up' for their personal safety (not all influenced by the firearm industry and peer pressure) leading to the disparity between US firearm homicides per capita rates and that of other 1st world countries.

  In theory 15x gun ownership should not lead to 74x firearm homicide rates. If the personal safety argument is credible, the death rate should be less than that in the UK, not 74x greater - or am I missing something?
• 

  skeeter1

  There has to be some public education, at the least, that educates families to keep guns out of houses with teenagers and children, especially those with mental disturbances.

  You know how Austrailia has that 'Working with Children' act? Well, there needs to be a mental health background check for gun ownership of any kind. A man with a restraining order on him - no gun. A child with depression - no gun for the entire house. The family can have a gun, but it has to be kept in a stable home. I'm talking even a handgun or a hunting rifle.

  When I was in the 8th grade, a boy I knew liked to skip school. He wasn't "wierd", but was well on his way to mischief. He and his buddies skipped school. They played Russian Roulette with a handgun. It blew up the boy. I'm sure he was high.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  So, I think some of the numbers are off (because of reporting, classifications, etc.), but, taking them at face value, some interesting observations....

  U.S. is highest in gun ownership per capita at 88.8 guns per 100 people. Obviously that doesn't mean that 88 out of 100 people own guns, it's more like there are people like me. Four people in my house yet 10 guns. So, some numbers...

  - U.S. highest per capita gun ownership

  - U.S. 12th in total related gun deaths

  - U.S. 18th in gun-related homocides (I think this number is off because some countries appear to reporting ALL gun related deaths as homocides, none as suicides, or maybe they just don't report suicides at ALL and homocide rate is accurate, no way to tell)

  - U.S. is 2nd (behind Montenegro) in gun-related suicides (note that 22 countries did NOT report a suicide rate at all)

  Putting that in context.....Switzerland has 51.4% the rate of firearm ownership compared to the US on a per capita basis, yet 97% the firearms related suicides. Canada has 34% gun ownership rate as compared to the U.S. and 64% the gun related suicide rate.

  Homocide related, among 1st world developed nations, the U.S. is first in both ownership and homocide rates (9th overall, however). Serbia, by contrast, has the 2nd highest gun ownership rate per capita as the US, a comparable suicide rate to the gun ownership rate, yet 20% of the homocide rate as the U.S.

  It's clear that gun ownership plays a role in gun related homocides.... to a point. It's clear that gun related suicides are not directly related to the gun ownership rate as Finland and Canada both have a gun onwership/suicide rate that are inversely proportional as compared to the U.S. (maybe it's the cold or eating so much salted fish that does it?)

  Having said that, I think, as I wrote is a previous post, that there is definitely a cultural thing going on here. For instance, Switzerland also has 19% of the fire-arms related deaths as the U.S. even thought they have 51% of the gun ownership rate, Canada with 34% of the gun ownership rate per capita has 35% of the gun-related homocides.

  I didn't do the math to relate the guns/capita to homocides, I need to start making spreadsheets to do more than this. Plus, I need to start making breakfast for my kids.
• 

  Benjie

  I haven't read every page of this thread, but I wonder if anyone has mentioned another difference between the USA and the UK?

  American policemen are armed. British policemen are not.

  Yes, there is a specialist wing of the Police force who do use firearms, and someone correct me if I'm wrong please, but I don't think they carry guns as a matter of course. I think they are there for use in the relatively few situations that warrant it.

  Of course those Americans who want to go out and hunt animals are a different case. Guns are used in field sports here too, but by a very small minority of people, and each is licensed.

  It's just that from this side of the Atlantic it seems and feels as though Americans are scared and feel a need to have guns, and proud of their guns, and want to have guns, and defend their right to have guns, and then express shock and surpriise when the inevitable happens.

  And yes, of course you need to sort your health system out as well so that people with mental health problems aren't excluded from help if they haven't any money. That was one of the causues outlined on Radio 4 this morning.

  Besty, you have made some particularly good points above, I thought.
• 

  moshe

  Simon's home turf is a lot different than the USA

  Salford compared to 2001 UK census

  Salford City of Salford England 72,751 210,145 49,138,831 - population
  White 93.9% 96.1% 91%
  Asian 1.9% 1.4% 4.6%
  Black 1.2% 1.2% 2.3%
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  In theory 15x gun ownership should not lead to 74x firearm homicide rates. If the personal safety argument is credible, the death rate should be less than that in the UK, not 74x greater - or am I missing something?

  As a comparison, the U.S. murder rate is 3.5 times higher than the U.K compared the murder-rate for firearms that is 74x higher. In the UK, you are 3.5 times less likely to be murdered, but if you are, you are 21 times as likely to be killed with something other than a gun.

  The 1st issue, to me, is why the heck is the murder rate in the U.S. 3.5 times as high? Secondly, it's clear the the availbility of weapons has a direct influence on weapons used (perhaps it means that the availability of weapons is driving the murder rate?).