"Right to bear arms" should mean ...

by Simon 616 Replies latest members politics

  • Low-Key Lysmith
    Low-Key Lysmith

    The reason that those stats and numbers are meaningless, is that you can spout numbers and stats all day. It won't change a thing. Those numbers are just that-numbers. They are impotent to change or progress. All they serve to do is show us how troubled we really are. It does nothing to help or in any way provide an inkling of a solution.

    The only way to end gun violence is to eradicate guns altogether, on a global scale. This is impossible. What needs to happen is to address and tackle the problem at its core. The problem is that America as a society is flawed. There will always be guns in the hands of the wrong people. It is a problem that we have created as a nation and now we need to figure out a way to live with guns in our society. I don't think that putting them only in the hands of the bad guys is a reasonable or safe solution.

  • besty
    besty
    I don't think that putting them only in the hands of the bad guys is a reasonable or safe solution

    Thats effectively what we have done in the UK, and then we try and manage the bad guys.

    Stats are a useful way to compare outcomes.

    In this case it seems reasonable to suggest that more stringent legislation would give America a chance at better outcomes, unless the stats I presented earlier are an acceptable price to retain 2nd Amendment personal rights?

    USA UK

    Homicides 2.98 0.04

    Suicides 5.75 0.17

    Unintentional 0.27 0.01

    So the USA firearm homicide rate is 74x that of the UK - the suicide rate is 34x - and unintentional deaths are 27x

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent

    Low Key Lysmith:

    The problem is that America as a society is flawed. There will always be guns in the hands of the wrong people. It is a problem that we have created as a nation and now we need to figure out a way to live with guns in our society.

    I think that's a realistic outlook. But it does raise different questions: and important ones. If the gun aspect of the problem is too many bad guys having too much access to too many guns that can kill too many people quickly and efficiently, then one way of thinking about it is to consider two basic pathways out of the poo: arm everyone and shoot it up, or start a long and difficult process of disarming the bad guys.

    The former leaves more dead good guys that bad guys (ie: bad guys shoot first and shoot more); the latter limits what guns good guys can have too. In other words, the staus quo and two opposing alternatives all suck. Which road forwad sucks the least? I suppose that's the question to be asked and answered (I would suggest the answer lies somewhere other than the text of the second amendement.)

    I don't think that putting them only in the hands of the bad guys is a reasonable or safe solution.

    No, of course its not. There are a whole lot of societal issues to fix too, as you rightly point out. It's not just about guns. But letting good guys carry guns in the street and have assult rifles at home gives bad guys more access to guns (ie: stealing them), more reason to carry a gun and more reason to shoot first and furious at the first sign of danger. I think that's true because it's the experience in other places and it makes practical sense.

    The only way to end gun violence is to eradicate guns altogether, on a global scale.

    Maybe elimination of gun violence is impossible. Maybe a more realistic aim would be to cut the rate of gun violence / death substantially.

    An interesting exercise might be to step back from the situation a bit and consider all the possible ways of cutting the death by gun rate in the US by, say, half over 20 years? With all options on the table including changes to the law, what specific measures could plausibly lead to the death toll being halved and at what social and economic cost? Then consider if the costs are worthwhile given the expected gains.

  • darthfader
    darthfader

    For these statistics, you are assuming that the only difference in the UK vs the US is the gun ownership laws. I would quote that correlation is not causation... There are myriad other differences in culture and environment that do come into play -- I will concede that gun ownership is ONE of the differences.

  • besty
    besty

    hey darth - ye i get this is a complex multivariate issue, and I also understand that correlation is not causation.

    The facts are clear though:

    90 guns per 100 people in the USA

    6 guns per 100 people in the UK

    Thats a 15x ratio and yet the death rates aren't just a simple 15x, horrific as that would be in itself.

    Homicides are 74x, suicides are 34x and accidental deaths are 27x - <WTF with a 27x accident rate - you need help handling your weapons..?>

    It seems to me there is a non-linear acceleration between guns per capita and gun deaths per capita - can you see where this is going?

    Please explain to me why we should adopt US- style gun laws here in the UK.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    . In fact, if all these things are 'equally as dangerous' as some of you clown claim, then issue them to your goddam soldier next time you're invading a country!!

    Soldiers ARE isssued spoons....

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Translation: I don't give a shit how many kids were murdered; just don't take away my Right to arm myself to the teeth with enough ammo to blow everyone to kingdom come.

    Translation: I don give a shit how many people, including kids, are killed every day, just don't take away my conenvience of automobiles so I get my stuff from amazon delivered in two day and load up enough Cheetohs in the car for a month.

    Again, if this was REALLY about caring if people died, the self-righteous would be screaming for the banning of cars since they are MUCH MUCH more dangerous. But you aren't. Now, take the time to rationalize that away, maybe take a drive or something. You'll be in much more danger while you calm down than my guns are to anyone, locked in a 300lb fireproof steel safe.

  • besty
    besty

    hey EntirelyPossible - I would value your translation of the stats I presented above or Max Divergents post 409 above.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    It seems to me there is a non-linear acceleration between guns per capita and gun deaths per capita - can you see where this is going?

    So, another way to put it is in the UK the rate is 0.00006 and in the US it's 0.0009. Just making it clear that how you frame numbers makes them look either REALLY big or REALLY small.

    In any event, your point is a valid one in many way. SOMETHING is going on in the US that is jacking the suicide rate through the roof. There seems to be an epidemic of people getting so low and so off the rails they are deciding to end it all and take as many people as they can with them. The drug war has created a culture of violence in many larger cities with armed gangs controlling neighborhoods so tightly even the police are hesitant to go into them. Inner cities are becoming ghettos with people that see no way out of the horrors of their life and violence, gun related or not, has become a way of life.

    We are becoming disconnected from each other as a culture. When we no longer see each other as people, we are capable of horrific acts towards each other and it seems, rather than that being the exception, it's becoming the norm.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    hey EntirelyPossible - I would value your translation of the stats I presented above or Max Divergents post 409 above.

    Sure. See my last post, I made a minor point about them before I ever saw this, let me take a few minutes and look at them. I love maths and stats :)

    One point I always like to make about stats is context, like when I hear "this will cause your chance of getting cancer to go up 10 times". That sounds big and scary until, often, you go look at find out the risk previously was 1 in five million and now, thanks to a 10x increase, it's 5 in 2.5 million.

    Of course, anytime I see the phrase "non-linear acceleration" it also catches my eye :)

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