If god exists...

by dazed but not confused 191 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Chariklo

    "We will continued to be enlightened. I see good things for our future. Unfortunately, this god is not growing with the enlightenment. He still has unenlightened standards that reflect the standards of the people that created him. That's the point. For this god to be real, surely he would be progressive and find ways to make a more enlightened people aware of his existence. That goes for all the gods, who amazingly resemble the cultures that worship them."

    Of course, this would make sense if the missing words were included. This, "this god is not growing with enlightenment" should read "some people's ideas of this god are not growing with enlightenment".

    Strctured as the original sentence is, it is nonsense. What is a god...whether you believe in one or not? Surely, to be a god, the divine being would necessarily be something other than human? So, even for one who does not believe in a god, the hypothetical being under discussion must actually be a god, real or not, and so could scarcely "grow" with the enlightenment of ordinary people.

    So, what you really mean here, is that, (in your opinion) people's concept of their god has not grown.

    That would be a sentence that made sense, and an idea that could be discussed. As it stands, though, the sentence is utterly nonsensical, and can't provide any basis for discussion. The same applies to the rest of that post.

    Designs, yes, the advance of astronomy has certainly increased our understanding massively. At the forefront of astronomical observation and research has been the Vatican Observatory, thus demonstrating that there is no conflict between science and religion, even though some ex-Jehovah's Witnesses find it very hard to shake off the mental shackles by which the Watchtower kept them in thrall, and can't get their heads around the happy interaction between those two disciplines.



    dazed but not confused From the opening post. “The more I think logically and critically about god the more I hate the concept of GOD. Fortunately, from what I can see, that’s all he is… a concept. Man made.

    Thank you for tolerating my jesting. The reason I joke about such things is that I have done all the heavy debating and can’t take the idea of a personal god seriously any more. Here is where the problem lies. Humans have created a god in their own image and imbued it with their traits, feelings and expectations.

    Whatever invisible forces are at work in the universe they demonstrate themselves on earth every day. Reality is what it is and no amount of pleading, pleasing or worshiping will alter the reality of our mortality. Those that are able to believe in a personal god are ‘blessed.’ Many humans before us have lived with courage and died expecting nothing more. Whatever we believe in, we will follow them.

    "Nos morituri te salutamus"

    We who are about to die salute you

  • fedup

    "Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all"

    " Do we want to contemplate his power? We see it in the immensity of the Creation. Do we want to contemplate his wisdom? We see it in the unchangeable order by which the incomprehensible whole is governed! Do we want to contemplate his munificence? We see it in the abundance with which he fills the earth. Do we want to contemplate his mercy? We see it in his not withholding that abundance even from the unthankful. In fine, do we want to know what God is? Search not the book called the Scripture, which any human hand might make, but the Scripture called the Creation."

    1794, Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

    Amazing book written over 200 years ago.

  • dazed but not confused
    dazed but not confused

    New Chapter - I sent a reply to your PM. Thank you.

  • Chariklo

    Well done, Thomas Paine!

    Says it all! :)

  • tec


    I get the point you are making. The chances would be higher that I would believe in whatever God my culture believes in. Our upbringing plays a big role on us. At the same time, people break out of their upbringing all the time, as long as they are given the choice and education to do so. So I might also have learned about Christ and listened to Him.

    It is impossible for us to know what path we might have taken, other than the one that we are on.

    My point was that those who do not know Christ, are not necessarily unknown by Him... according to what is in them; which is manifested in what they DO. So I don't have that whole... be one of us or sadly die... fear.

    Peace to you,

    tammy (off to work so can't respond to you at the moment Dazed... will catch up later)

  • NewChapter
    That would be a sentence that made sense, and an idea that could be discussed. As it stands, though, the sentence is utterly nonsensical, and can't provide any basis for discussion. The same applies to the rest of that post.

    I didn't ask you for an English lesson or to restructure my sentences. If you feel you can't discuss my posts, or there is no basis for discussion, then don't respond, instead of arrogantly insisting that I express myself as you would have me express myself. You have offered nothing to advance the points of my post, but only a writing critique. I said exactly what I meant to say, and if that bothers you, ignore it. I am sick and tired of the personal nature of your responses to me. Word games are not valid points in a debate. You scored absolutely nothing.

  • Lozhasleft

    This scripture in Romans 1 sums things up for me:

    20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

    I couldn't not acknowledge a creator when a look at even just the night sky. Other translations say it's 'inexusable' not to see evidence of God in creation, and I agree with that thought. Not in a judgement way, just very simply I can't understand how others don't see it.

    Loz x

  • dazed but not confused
    dazed but not confused

    Loz- It would 'inexcusable' for me to neglect my children since i had a hand in making them. It would be 'inexcusable' for me to allow my children to suffer if I could do something to prevent it, would it not? God's actions over the past 6000 years are inexcusable from my prospective. He deserves no respect from me if he can't or wont respect us as a human race right?

  • dazed but not confused
    dazed but not confused

    Maybe I attempt to insert logic where there is none?

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