If god exists... (page 2)

tec

You were born here in the western world.

I was.

Raised with specific beliefs that you, as it seems to me, would die for.

I wasn't really raised with specific beliefs... just a general belief in God sort of thing.

Most Christians I know would die for their religious beliefs.

Perhaps. Hard to tell unless the moment is upon you.

I don't think there are too many people (in this part of the world at least) who would kill someone for their faith. Not at the moment anyway.

Though JW's do make that decision with regard to blood.

I know I would have when I was a JW. But if you were born in a country and around a culture that said Muhammad was the almighty God or insert your own personal god here, and that is all you knew to be true, why wouldn’t god come down and correct you and

everyone else?

Maybe because people would not want him to? Maybe they would rather listen to other people, instead of God, Himself. Mainly because of fear?

Why would he want it so confusing for every man, woman and child to chose a path, if he truly wants people to be saved?

He would not want it to be so.

I think we just make it so.

Is Christianity the right and only true path to salvation in your opinion?

No.

I don't think christianity (the religion) is the true path to salvation at all.

Christ, yes. But there are those who belong to Him because of what is IN them, and they show what is in them by their deeds. Such as written account that shows him inviting those into the kingdom who had fed the hungry, clothed the poor, offered shelter, visited those in prison... because whatever they did for those people, they did to Him.

There are other verses similar to this one that show the same thing.

How do you know that Buddhism, Judaism or any other religion isn’t the correct one?

Well, I don't think any religion is the correct religion.

But the One I do know is Christ. I see truth in Him and His teachings, and I do not see that in these religions. Some truth of course... and other things not so much. I am sure they think the same about Christianity, but then, so do I.

Just Christ...is the one I follow. Not the religion that is splintered into many parts, same as any other religion out there.

I like Buddhism, as it is quite spiritual. But I cannot reconcile the peace it is supposed to give unless I disconnect a bit from everything; step back and observe; and I cannot do that with my family. I need to learn MORE love to do this.

I cannot agree with Hinduism, with regard to the caste system.

Allah is the same God as mine; just not seen through Christ. Judaism has the same God as well; just no Christ.

But i do not judge any of the people who belong to these. I also do not have to worry that just because someone is not a 'christian' that they are going to hell or dying at armageddon or not being invited into the Kingdom.

Sorry that was a long response. Just trying to be accurate.

Peace to you,

tammy

transhuman68

LOL, of course there is a relationship between belief in the supernatural and ignorance of science & medicine. 2,000 years ago, it was possible to fool people into believing almost anything- and they did.
Look at what is implied at Luke 13:16 and John 9:2- that sin and demons were responsible for people being crippled or blind. Or find a Bible with John 5:4 in it, and read verses 1-9; ask yourself- was this what people really believed at the time? To get a better idea of how religion and superstition get started, it is worth reading ‘Breaking the spell’, by Daniel C. Dennett.

Joe Grundy

Tammy:

With respect, I think you're dodging the issue a bit here.

You were born in the west, with a general concept of the modern western god. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, for example, you would almost certainly have been raised in one of the islamic religions with a concept of allah and your view of Jesus would have been shaped by that - i.e. he was an honourable prophet but his message was superceded by the 'revelations' to Mohammed. To deny that could mean death.

Had you been born in Thailand, for example, you would be following the tenets of the buddha (and other gods) and would probably smile and acknowledge Jesus as one more source of teaching/thinking to be considered. And so the examples could continue.

It would, I think, be a fascinating (but impossible) exercise if one could start with a blank sheet, free of all influences, and truly make a comparative study of all of the religions (and religious influences) which have abounded since homo sapiens started thinking about these things.

NewChapter

Excellent OP, and excellent reasoning from Hitchens. Billions of prayers have been uttered over thousands of years pleading for clarity and understanding, but what we have is simply confusion. This god, if we are referring to the Christian interpretation, would have seen that we reached a point where we could no longer accept what was written about our beginnings. He would have given us that intelligence and reasoning ability. The curiosity. And yet, after all the changes our culture has gone through, he still says nothing. As we disprove any need for him at all, he is silent. We are left with ancient manuscripts written in dead languages, when we live in the age of information. So much conflicting information, and each person is left to figure it out for themselves. What do they accept? What do they reject? No direction.

When we look at it this way, then all the reasoning that this god exists sound like mere excuses for his inaction. Yet he would be aware of all this, and still gives nothing but independable personal experiences and understandings.

I used to twist and mold evey piece of information so that I could still believe in this god. I used to deny facts and look everywhere to confirm my bias. 99 prayers go unanswered, but when one seems to be answered, prayer works. It didn't really allow for coincidence or simply personal initiative.

I'm glad I don't have to filter through this bias anymore. It was exhausting. I always had to defend this god. Why? It seemed perfectly clear to me at the time why, but looking back it simply made no sense. I could twist anything to fit, but if this god were real, he would be accessible and evident to everybody willing to take a look. He would satisfy our need for quality evidence---afterall---he created that need.

Life makes so much more sense now that I'm an atheist. And if this god ever wants to prove he's around, I will examine the new evidence. If he exists, he would know that. I don't even need a miracle.

NewChapter

Joe, you have a pm.

Joe Grundy

NC:

Noted and will respond. Thanks.

"Life makes so much more sense now that I'm an atheist. And if this god ever wants to prove he's around, I will examine the new evidence. If he exists, he would know that. I don't even need a miracle."

Well, I agree with this but would expand it to change 'this god' to 'any god'. Raised in a western protestant religion I had a particular view of 'god' inculcated in me as a child - and it's hard to break out of that. A few years ago I had a Thai girlfriend. There was no point in asking her in detail about her beliefs (or anything else for that matter) but her custom and belief was to light incense to the buddha, to give to the monks, and so on. She could no more detail her faith than discuss quantum mechanics (nor could I) but it meant a lot to her and regulated her morals and her actions. Not much different to many western christians.

I do have some problems with the word 'atheist'. It seems to have become pejorative. I don't believe in the supernatural in all its forms, from the tooth fairy to 'ouija' seances. Some/many/most people don't believe in most alleged gods. I just go one step further and don't believe in any of them.

NewChapter

Agreed, Joe. If any god, or multiple gods, want to show me evidence they know I need, not a miracle, then I will consider it. And if there are no gods, but some kind of spiritual realm, and I find convincing and solid evidence, I will consider it. Any of these gods would know what I would need.

To withhold such, knowing that I would accept evidence, negates the notion that this god or gods would be loving. Afterall, am I not rational because I was created that way? Why ask me to go against a nature that I was created with? That would not be loving.

NewChapter

Another pm, Joe.

Joe Grundy

NC:

An interesting thought. If I am a 'created being' well, either the creator or me got it sadly wrong.

I've done many things that I got completely wrong, and some I got very right (by my standards, not supernatural ones). I haven't really kept the score (e.g. not done weekly confessionals per RC rules) but I hope that at the end anyone interested enough would assess that the 'good' bits I did outweighed the 'bad'. Not for any supernatural purpose, just because I think that as a higher primate species and as a sentient being, I prefer to do 'good' rather than 'ill'. But I won't be around for the verdict, my atoms and molecules will sooner or later go back to cosmic dust.

I take responsibility for my own actions and I stand or fall by them. I am not subject to supernatural influences, nor am I subject to a 'celestial totalitarianism' which dictates my actions before, during, and after my life. I am me, as independent as I can be, and someone who revels in the freedom to think.

yadda yadda 2

Of course, the standard Christian response to your questions is that God IS going to undeniably reveal himself again to the world soon, through the return of Jesus Christ. So perhaps your question really is "Why has God remained so hidden for the last 2,000 years?"

If god exists...

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