A truce between Atheists and Non-Atheists?

by palmtree67 699 Replies latest jw friends

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  still thinking

  Yes, we do operate on the assumption belief IS a choice. Many believers have stopped believing. And so have proven it is a choice to believe or not.

  This is one of the most unscientific things I have ever read from you. First there's no proof that unbelievers have a choice not to believe. It could easily be said that their dissent was predestined by the laws of motion, time and evolution. Many rationalists, including some big minds, see free will to be a human illusion. Which would mean that both my believing andyour unbelief are NOT actually choices. So, your experience proves nothing, just as my belief proves nothing, only that it exists and was caused by what was before me....sab

  I chose to stop ignoring evidence for evolution. I chose to stop believing I was right about scientific findings when I really had no idea what I was talking about. I am not a scientist. Nor do I speak scientifically. I am not quialified to do so. I am also not quialified to discredit what real scientists have found. So a lot of my faith was grounded in lack of understanding and ignorance. I have chosen to not be so ignorant anymore and to learn from people who do know what they are talking about when it comes to science. Faith in any one of the miriads of gods available over the centuries just doesn't stack up. I have chosen to not ignore facts in favour of myths and fairytales.

  Many non believers believe in belief. They don't necessarily believe there is a god but don't like the IDEA of there not being one. So they pretend that it's real. They fear society would have no morals if belief was not encouraged so they encourage other believers whilst sitting on the sidelines feeling secure that they have contributed to a better world. They believe in belief. And THAT is a choice. I do not believe that those people benefit society as a whole. And I do not feel the need to encourage other believers. I do not believe their belief is any more than wishful thinking and possibly even fear of reality.

  And the CHOICE for me really came into play when I decided to honestly question my own belief. I chose to not just accept what I had been taught about god, or what others professed to be true. I chose to honestly question myself. THAT was the choice I made. I could have chosen to not honestly question my own belief and I would more than likely still be believing now. Honestly questioning yourself is a very difficult thing to do when it comes to god. It is a choice to take the blue pill or the red pill. Once the pill has been selected, and reality begins to show itself, it is almost impossible to halt. It is only fear that stops the search. Fear that others who adamantly believe are wrong. And that there isn't a god. For some the choice to stay in no mans land is too appealing so they choose to stay in limbo and declare they don't know allowing possibility for all the gods to be true and defending a god belief they themselves do not believe in.
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  sizemik

  Since many people report this internal phenomenon it's safe to say that there might be a set of genes that predispose one to belief in God. . . . sab

  Which would mean that both my believing and your unbelief are NOT actually choices. . . . sab

  I have a question on that . . . where in that concept does free will belong?

  I mean . . . instead of countless centuries of preaching, teaching, evangelising and conflict, God could just pop on down and take everyone's DNA sample.
• 

  still thinking

  It is not a stereotype of predudice even though you appear to be trying to make it one.

  Yes, it is a prejudice that's my entire point. I have seen and catalogged this over the years I have contributed to this forum. There is certainly a world epidemic of anti-religion/faith and I took part in it when I came here. Eventually, I realized that it was not right and I stopped, which I then had to take heat for, like I am right now from you. The truth always hurts, my dear....sab

  And epidemic...sounds like some sort of disease....are we ill? Does this relate to our faulty god gene?

  I'm sorry if you feel like I am personally giving you heat...that is not my intention. I am trying to discuss belief.

  Whos truth are you referring to? Mine...or yours? Mine is not painful, well not for me anyway.
• 

  still thinking

  Sometimes some of the things you say really repulse me sab. And I have to say this particular argument of yours is one of those things.

  This is only because you are oversensitive. It's really your psychology showing. I am not trying to be mean to you, but you present your cases strongly and pepper them with authoritative language. I get the feeling that you may be a teacher or could be one and I have noticed that those particular types of people loathe a lot of what I have to say. They want the world to be something that it's not, they often look at the world through a lens of perfectionism which effects how they view the actions of others....sab

  LOL...no. It's because sometimes the things you say are unpalatable. Not always, and not most. And I don't loathe what you say.

  I accept the world for what it is. I don't try to add or take away anything from reality.
• 

  still thinking

  I'm not talking about blatant personal comments like...you're an alcoholic

  If someone is showing signs of alcoholism it's not an insult to bring it up. Ever hear of an intervention?...sab

  If I called you an alcoholic on an internet forum it would be a blatant personal comment....not an intervention of anysort.

  If they said they wanted help because they had a drinking problem I would still not diagnose them as alcoholic. Drinking problems come in all shapes and sizes. I might suggest places to try to get help. But I still don't know that you are an alcoholic.

  Faith is something most of us have experienced and shared. Faith is the topic. It is not a personal attack, if a person feels that it is that personal that discussing it attacks them personally, maybe they shouldn't be discussing it on a public forum.
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  NewChapter

  LOL. A pm expressing concern is motivated by caring. Getting a few personal friends together in a room to confront the person you are worried about is an intervention.

  Accusing someone of alcoholism in front of a stadium of people is another thing all together.
• 

  still thinking

  Maybe thats what Satan tweaks sizemik. Maybe he gets in there and plays with out DNA.
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  sabastious

  Another thing to think about. If there is a designer that designed us to believe in gods, then in a sense, we are programmed. What does that do to free-will and how does that make us different than programmed robots? And for those that fight their programming---what does that say about them?

  Exactly, so why does any atheist get offended when they are referred to as organic robots? It's not an insult it's a logical description of humanity without a connection to a spiritual framework.

  I chose to stop ignoring evidence for evolution. I chose to stop believing I was right about scientific findings when I really had no idea what I was talking about. I am not a scientist. Nor do I speak scientifically. I am not quialified to do so. I am also not quialified to discredit what real scientists have found. So a lot of my faith was grounded in lack of understanding and ignorance. I have chosen to not be so ignorant anymore and to learn from people who do know what they are talking about when it comes to science. Faith in any one of the miriads of gods available over the centuries just doesn't stack up. I have chosen to not ignore facts in favour of myths and fairytales.

  So, you chose to put faith in men because after personally disproving gods, through learning about science and evolution, the ideas of men are all that is left. You would be then forced to default to whoever knows best. This would mean your vulnerability would lie in your methods of determining which men to put your faith in. In my opinion this is not an unbelief in gods, but assigning man the position of God.

  Many non believers believe in belief. They don't necessarily believe there is a god but don't like the IDEA of there not being one. So they pretend that it's real. They fear society would have no morals if belief was not encouraged so they encourage other believers whilst sitting on the sidelines feeling secure that they have contributed to a better world. They believe in belief. And THAT is a choice. I do not believe that those people benefit society as a whole. And I do not feel the need to encourage other believers. I do not believe their belief is any more than wishful thinking and possibly even fear of reality.

  Could not a believer say the same of you? That YOU are actually fearful of a world WITH gods? A group of people who collect data that would prove a God of Evil would most certainly fear if that God existed. However mainstream religion says that God is good and therefore if their own framework can be used to determine that their God is NOT good, then their god is simply fallacious, not real and of no consquence.

  And the CHOICE for me really came into play when I decided to honestly question my own belief. I chose to not just accept what I had been taught about god, or what others professed to be true. I chose to honestly question myself. THAT was the choice I made. I could have chosen to not honestly question my own belief and I would more than likely still be believing now. Honestly questioning yourself is a very difficult thing to do when it comes to god. It is a choice to take the blue pill or the red pill. Once the pill has been selected, and reality begins to show itself, it is almost impossible to halt. It is only fear that stops the search. Fear that others who adamantly believe are wrong. And that there isn't a god. For some the choice to stay in no mans land is too appealing so they choose to stay in limbo and declare they don't know allowing possibility for all the gods to be true and defending a god belief they themselves do not believe in.

  But yet you have come full circle. A few threads back you admitted that evolution was "complicated" and you used that as an argument against me. If evolution is "complicated" then you would need people to explain it to you and therefore you would require a measure of faith in that person and what they have to say. However, evolution is NOT complicated and can be seen in every day life in detail. This has always been in the case both in ancient and modern times. For instance the I CHING is a measurement of evolution, just with an ancient esoteric framework as opposed to a modern scientific one.

  OK sab...if this is so...do we, that don't believe in god lack this gene? How does that work? If we used to believe.
  
  I think it has much more to do with what I have been taught than anything genetic. I don't feel or think there is a god any longer, but I did.
  
  Did I loose this gene? Is is faulty?

  Because a believer with this "believer gene" would NEVER stop believing. They would be incapable of performing a nonbelieving action like asserting the non existence of a creator. The way you would know you don't have this gene is if you didn't believe in God. This could explain the motive behind the "evangelism" of many atheists. They are simply searching for people who lack the believing gene like them, but it's a process in determining that when they're raised in a believing landscape. Similar to how a heterosexual would react if they were raised with homosexuality imposed upon them when contacted by heterosexuals. They might appear homosexual, but it would be a process to discover that they actually lack the homosexual predisposition and are simply a product of an environment that have forced them to work against the grain.

  -Sab
• 

  still thinking

  So, you chose to put faith in men

  No...I chose to accept EVIDENCE as it presents itself. Putting faith in 'men' is a spiritual concept. You are defining what I do by your standards.
• 

  still thinking

  Could not a believer say the same of you? That YOU are actually fearful of a world WITH gods? A group of people who collect data that would prove a God of Evil would most certainly fear if that God existed. However mainstream religion says that God is good and therefore if their own framework can be used to determine that their God is NOT good, then their god is simply fallacious, not real and of no consquence....sab

  Yes...they could! And that's where discussion begins...yippee!!!

  I am not offended by that claim...why would a believer be offended by my claims.