Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  NewChapter

  There is no such thing as the spiritual, but that does not invalidate my experience.

  I think the point that we are trying to make (well I am, as I should not speak for Cofty) is that our experiences were authentic, and we know what they feel like, but we have come to the conclusion that the source was not outside ourselves, but internal. Which is why I prefer my made-up term efferzingpow, because the term 'spiritual' comes with a different connotaion, but is a feeling that we can all experience, atheist and non-atheist.

  Back to the point. The authenticity of these experiences is not proof of the spiritual. We have those experiences too---even now---and we are not reaching out for the spiritual.

  Sometimes people say, "But I KNOW what I feel." I agree. You do know what you feel. But that is still not proof of a spiritual, because I know what I feel and what I felt, too.
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  palmtree67

  I think some dismiss the spiritual experience of some - NOT due to their having been in religion - but because the person themselves dismisses it. You* don't believe you had an authentic spiritual experience... You* are the one dismissing it. You* state that you only thought that it was valid... but you know now that it was not.

  I do not dismiss anyone's spiritual experience... it is between them and the one they serve. But when someone else invalidates their own spiritual experience (and Cofty states that there is no such thing as this spirit, so how could he have known it...he could not; he can only have - according to his words - thought that he knew it. His words. His.)

  Peace,

  tammy

  I'm sorry, but this sounds like a "Who's on First?" skit........

  I "heard" those words in Abbott's voice. LOL
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  tec

  There is no such thing as the spiritual, but that does not invalidate my experience.

  It does not invalidate your experience... but you invalidate the reality of the spirit behind your experience. I've had this conversation with Q before, and I think I gave him more credit for his past experiences than he gave himself, lol.

  But the point was, no one was invalidating the experience of others based on their association with jw's, mormons, etc. That would not make sense. Aguest was also a jw.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  NewChapter

  But the point was, no one was invalidating the experience of others based on their association with jw's, mormons, etc. That would not make sense

  Actually, that happens quite a bit. You do not need to assume that all comments are directed at you.
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  tec

  Correct... it does happen, and I do not have to assume that all comments are directed at me. But it (that type of invalidation you refer to) did not happen here, and here is where those comments were made. So I am just trying to explain. Not taking offense, and hopeful that offense is not being taken.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  AGuest

  Wow, AGuest, I think you need to calm down.

  I am calm, dear NC, truly (peace to you!). I'm actually not an excitable person at all. But your comment made no sense, nor did the one after (I'll get to that in a bit).

  You are attributing motives to people, and I'm kind of surprised you have come to those conclusions.

  I'm attributing motives? And you're surprised at MY conclusion? Dear one, YOU made the statement concluding MY motive. Do you not see... no, I guess you truly don't. Well, okay...

  You also are throwing around the 'lying' accusation quite a bit. Have you ever heard the saying "shooting a squirrel with an elephant gun?". My brother used to be this way. He would take the mildest slight as permission to just come at a person with both barrels. I used to use that phrase with him when he seemed to overreact to small things.

  I'm sorry but I have to ignore this. I truly do. Because if you can see me in that scenario... but no others... then I have to move on past it. Please forgive me.

  As far as what I was saying about Cofty, and extending it to myself, I DO think that some past spirituality was dismissed quite easily. Now don't go ballistic on me, because I am telling you my viewpoint. Okay?

  Okay...

  I also said that others had a tendency to do that too---so I was not focusing on you specifically, but maybe using your post as a springboard to get an idea out there.

  Okay...

  I have run into this A LOT on this board. I also pointed out that we all dismiss the spiritual experience of JW's, Mormons (even though Q wrote a very moving story of a very spiritual moment he shared with others as a Mormon), and even Scientologists. That is acceptable too. It's only when we call some people's spiritual experience into question that it is viewed an intolerant, or insulting. I think that is interesting.

  And what "spiritual" experience would that be, with regard to me, please?

  When I was a JW, I was a true believer and very spiritual. I mediated, read my bible, made connections, prayed with a very open and receptive heart. There were times that I KNEW that Jehovah's hand was leading me. I would be filled with peace and confidence and a strong sense of protection. I don't think that most on this board would accept that as authentic, cuz it was the JW's, therefore my seeking was counterfeit as were my experiences, and I was somehow being blocked. I was not a person that thought of the governing body as my mediator, but I thought of Christ as my mediator. I know some here think that JW's dismiss Christ, but I did not. I thought about him a lot. I tried to emulate him in the decisions that I made. I hated the meetings, but I loved my time of meditation and prayer. The rest I felt was just an obligation, but not my personal relationship. That was mine. I did not have the same experience as some on this board did. I really worked on my relationship with God and his son.

  Okay... but I don't think we have the same definition of "spiritual." In fact, I know we don't. For you, it is an abstract definition of the experience(s) of some; for me, it is a reality. For everyone.

  Now would it be proper to tell me that you understand why I'm no longer spiritual because of the religion I belonged to?

  Ummmm... I am not the one saying anyone is no longer spiritual. Never happened. To the contrary, I am the one saying you are spiritual... regardless of religion. But... okay...

  Well, judging by your post above, I believe you would, because you will talk about false teachings. And that is the point. I think there is some false teaching going on right here---can I say so?

  Of course you can.

  Or would that get me into trouble and painted as an angry atheist?

  Not with ME. And please... oh, please... show mere I have ever called you... or any other... an angry atheist. I don't believe the anger that is displayed by some has anything to do with them being an atheist.

  You say so quite freely when addressing teachings that don't coincide with your understanding.

  Again, please... PLEASE... show me were I have ever said such a thing. PLEASE.

  But I suspect that if I say it, it could become a real problem.

  You would be mistaken. Dear NC... I rarely address folks from the POV that they're an atheist. I have, yes, but either to ask a serious question... or to respond to something such a one has posed to ME. Otherwise, I don't even go there. Take this thread - it's about faith. I addressed it to the Household of God, Israel. Why are WE even having a discussion? Because YOU came HERE.

  Now, true, I did post comments on the "Truce" thread... but that was because the subject was a truce - not faith, belief, non-belief, etc. I also started a thread about a news article. Had nothing to do with faith, belief, non-belief, etc. And yet, on BOTH threads... my faith, belief, etc., was called into question. Why was that, dear one?

  I believe my experiences were very real, as the experience of others seems to be real. However if I had a heart that open and that accepting, how did I end up here? I was not always a JW. In fact, I probably spent most of my non-JW life more like you than identifying with any religion. And yet here I am. An atheist. My point being, that if this god draws those to him that are open, then why was I not drawn?

  NC... hear me: I am not the One you have to ask this. I am not the One who can provide you with an answer. Why are you asking ME? I mean, I don't get it: you (and others) repeatedly say I don't really know jack about these things. And I vehemently AGREE with you. Yet, here you are... asking ME. WHY??? Why not go to the One who can tell YOU what you wish to know regarding this?

  The JW's did not 'stumble' me or turn me off to God. I was actually quite content, if not with the culture, then with my relationship with God. I did not set out to disprove gods, or to become an atheist. In fact, I was the last person to realize that I actually HAD become an atheist. And it wasn't anger driving me, but a connections of facts and logic that crept through. It felt like it happened instantaneously, but when I looked back, I realized it had been a long time coming, I was just in denial.

  Okay...

  Now will my past spirituality be invalidated because I came to a different conclusion?

  I don't think so. I mean, if you're asking me and not being rhetorical, my answer would be vehemently, strongly, absolutely... no. But again, we have different understandings as to what it means to BE spiritual. You look to man's definition - I don't.

  I think it may, if not openly, then in people's minds.

  Some, perhaps. I mean, the WTBTS folks don't believe I'M spiritual. But that's because I don't fulfill their definition of spirituality. The truth, though, is that if anyone is lacking in "spirituality", it's them. But even they are spiritual... because we ALL are.

  Because that's how it would have worked for me when I believed. I would have thought there must have been something defective with the other person's faith or spirituality, because there is NO WAY if they knew TRUE spirituality they would have become an atheist.

  But that's how it would have worked for YOU... and perhaps even some others (including those who think like you and some who don't). It didn't work that way for me, then... and still doesn't now. I don't think in terms of "defects" in people's spirituality. If there is a "defect", it might be in their FAITH... but not their spirituality. And no, the two are not synonymous.

  Okay, moving on to the next set of comments.

  Peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  Qcmbr

  Still here , phew.

  Ive been lying awake this morning mulling over this situation. I think this thread has derailed and I request a small amount more indulgence because I wanted to post just a few quotes from LDS history from both JS and followers just because I want to illustrate styles, content and themes common to those in the flush of faith. Once trust is won and faith exercised it becomes difficult to return to a state of neutrality.

  These were days never to be forgotten; to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim andThummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, "interpreters," the history or record called "The Book of Mormon."

  Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

  Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter...

  Would you think it strange if I relate what I have seen in vision in relation to this interesting theme[, the resurrection]? Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here. So plain was the vision, that I actually saw men, before they had ascended from the tomb, as though they were getting up slowly. They took each other by the hand and said to each other, "My father, my son, my mother, my daughter, my brother, my sister." And when the voice calls for the dead to arise, suppose I am laid by the side of my father, what would be the first joy of my heart? To meet my father, my mother, my brother, my sister; and when they are by my side, I embrace them and they me. . . .

  You don't know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. . . . When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then.

  Joseph Smith is a great man, a man of principle, a straight forward man; no saintish long-faced fellow, but quite the reverse. Indeed some stumble because he is such a straight forward, plain spoken, cheerful man, but that makes me love him the more. . . . I have seen and been in the company of Joseph, and heard him speak several times. I love him, and believe him to be a Prophet of God, and called to do a great work in these last days on the earth.
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  NewChapter

  Real quick, but my paste doesn't work properly. Regarding what you have to say about teachings that don't coincide with yours being false---you asked me to show you where you said that. Right here.

  Obviously, SOMETHING was lacking there... if it didn't cause him to HOLD ON to his "spirituality" (which is not something that one LOSES - THAT is yet another FALSE teaching of religion - spirituality is not something we HAVE... it's something we (ALL)... ARE: spirits, in "earthen vessels" - the body of flesh (with IT'S blood).
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  AGuest

  Yes, I can see why you might be afraid, Q (peace!). I might be, too. You need not have any fear as to me, though, really - no one considers me a great [wo]man... and I'm not a prophet. I'm just a servant... and a good-for-nothing one, at that. I haven't found any tablets, golden or otherwise, but if I do I will certainly make sure SOMEONE else sees them... and photographs them.

  Peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
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  Qcmbr

  but you are preaching, you admitted some time ago that you had a divine mandate to share the words of J here, you are adamant that you are a slave of Christ and that he speaks to you, you have openly stated that your spiritual gifts are expanding so that now you are able to perceive spiritually the motivations of other people and finally you do have followers who are testifying on your behalf and are beginning to adopt your speech patterns, idioms, internal language, worship behaviour and are starting to experience co visions with you.

  exactly the same happened with JS way before he created a church. He too had a devoted group who really felt like god was revealing new insights to them, who grew closer due to persecution, who felt assured of divine manifestations in their lives.

  apols stupid phone.