Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    by showing them that there is freedom out here in the world to choose to believe there's a god or to choose to believe there isn't

    Its not like choosing your preferred colour to decorate your house.

    There are facts to bring to the table regarding religion and faith, tons of facts, and those of us who have been down that road will not stand back and give a free pass to people who are intent on recruiting vulnerable people to an alternative version of what they have just escaped from.

    Shelby makes outrageous claims, it is worth reminding her potential recruits of this fact - I reserve the right to use sarcasm and satire in doing so.

  • tec
    tec

    Well, you're wrong about motive, Bohm. Aguest came back because people wanted her back. Because there are some who want her to be here. She didn't stir any shit with her post... but you came on JUST to take a dig at her. You did not care about the OP. You had nothing to contribute to that. So why? And who cares if she had an i am leaving thread a while back? How many of those threads do we get in a month, and how many times does the poster come back... for their own reasons?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    And see, now this thread is all about Aguest again, and not about the subject. So I am bowing out of that part of the discussion before an even bigger argument breaks out and the entire thread gets deleted because of it. I will comment about the OP, but not as to the rest. I, too, will leave the reader to discern for themselves, and they are certainly capable of doing so without my input.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Loz , started this post to you but it's hopefully going to be read by a few more, - I just sat and read the bones and blood revelation AG had while posting on her forum. You guys are creating something quite worrying. You are all getting sucked into it and adding your own mini revelations / claims to gifts of the spirit and ideas about the importance of this Jaheshuah's ( you've all - the ones supporting AGs spiritual gifts - started to use this name now having seemingly dropped the name Jesus) blood dialysis. You are free to do what you will of course. I only offer a voice of concerned warning based upon concrete experience of unwittingly teaching and experiencing emotive , spiritual, love filled and persuasive religious behaviour.

    When I was a missionary I was very good at persuading/encouraging people to believe in 'Christ'. Many times both I and them were reduced to tears so powerful were the spiritual feelings. Of course both you and I now agree that I was of course talking rubbish because any spiritual messages that we , as Mormons and people we were teaching had, cannot have been divine since they were wrapped in BoM theology, unless God really is Mormon. Once I remember being part of a revelation. We were talking about the holy spirit. In LDS theology this is a real person who has not received a body (yet?) and is able to communicate spirit to spirit (Jesus did it physically and as a resurrected being is unable to enter inside the body and access the spirit hence why the Holy Spirit takes up that job after Jesus' resurrection). While discussing this with a young mother 'we' (can't actually remember who) said that the Holy Spirit understands us so well because it is our Heavenly Mother. We all stopped talking - Chills down the spine - wide eyes - choking back tears etc. What an amazing revelation. This next bit is fundamental - within LDS theology this just fitted so beautifully, it seemed so apt, so neat and so clean, so obvious. We all had that moment of deep reverence tinged with that electric feeling of oh my gosh, we just received some deep spiritual insight from god right here and now. We all shared it, we all confirmed it to each other and we were all certain it was the power of the Holy Spirit coursing through our minds and bodies.

    Turns out LDS theology categorically states that the Holy Ghost is male. We never talked about our revelation again.

    Lets focus in on what is happening as you share AGs 'revelations'. I am almost 100% certain that what I described above you will have read dispassionately because (forgive me I'm going to bold this) THE NATURE AND GENDER OF THE HOLY GHOST PLAYS NO PART IN JW THINKING BECAUSE THE SPIRIT IS SIMPLY A FORCE AND AS EX-JWS THERE IS NO EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT. Here's the kicker. AGs revelation regarding blood only resonates as something special because blood is such a fundamental part of JW/Ex-JW thinking. You're preprogrammed to find it interesting. Much like hearing your name being called in a crowd. This information on supposed two way blood transfusions is nothing to do with xian traditional theology ( which keeps the idea of blood closer to Judaic traditional ideas) but is everything to do with JWs. As an ex lds member the whole blood fixation is silly just as the Mormon fixation with polygamy is silly to you.

    I put it to you that you are all sliding into a cultlike situation where you have fully internalised, accepted and begun to share in AGs visions and are following her waiting for her next divine revelation. To disagree with any of her revelations would be tantamount to disagreeing with god. You have created a leader. She has even indirectly alluded to this by saying some are at the front, some are in the middle and some are at the back ( of course Christ is at the head, almost all xian leaders are keen to point this out.) I am genuinely worried. Some people are now happily posting and glorying in AGs spiritual gifts.

    I've also been alarmed at AGs claim to be returning here to help out those who are receptive. I am sure many will think I am way over the line here. I may well even be banned , so be it, but I'm sad to see this forum used as a recruitment location. This is not said out of maliciousness or in anger but in genuine concern that vulnerable people , trusting people and believers reeling from leaving the JWs will all too easily be swayed by someone very overtly running a forum church, someone who is giving revelations , claiming direct divine intuition and the ability to spiritually discern individual posters motivations and where preaching is announced 'to the house of Israel' and finished with a self styled 'slave of Christ' reminder.

    If this is it for me, then so long and thanks for all the fish! You've truly been a great milestone and important part of my life.

  • cofty
    cofty

    NC - There is a trend that takes to a whole new level.

    They eschew church, most of the bible (apart from bits that suit) the name Jesus, the word religion etc etc

    These things become a shibboleth that allows everybody else to be dismissed without further consideration.

    It is how cults begin - fortunately 99% of these movements are just too boring to survive.

  • bohm
    bohm

    TEC: You draw your conclusions, i draw mine. i dare say Shelbys thread have the meat in due seasons feel, she is even adressing the board like a preacher from the pulpit, "to the house of israel!".

    What i write might not be very popular with you, but thats what i see. Its a message board and I think its worth doing reality-checking for threads like this.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Qcmbr - Your post resonates exactly with my own genuine concerns.

    I really hope it is read thoughtfully by those who are sleepwalking into what I see as an abusive situation.

  • bohm
    bohm

    and btw tec -- "people wanted her back" - glad to get confirmation we have an enviroment where people have actively begun to seek out her sermons; i take it that should put some of the tedious discussions surrounding Shelbys status as a dispenser of divine "messages" to rest! holy cow! Will the movement have a name at some point?

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Q, that was fantastic! Thank you.

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    I just have to chuckle a little bit at a poster telling us that there are more important things in the world than this discussion---while contributing to that discussion. It is funny. It's a good way to invalidate a lot of things, because there are more important things in the world, yet they are just as engaged as we are.

    NC- Yes I am contributing, but I was simply trying to illuminate the idea of perspective. Shelby's style is so minor an issue by comparison. It's certainly not enough to warrant rude and offensive responses. Qcumbr - Thank you for your post. I hear you and appreciate your concerns. This has been discussed previously in detail so I won't attempt to repeat. It's not a cult, it's simply a 'sharing' with folks of similar beliefs. If you believe its all about 'Waiting upon Shelbys revelations" then you have totally misread the forum, or my participation anyway. It really is no big deal at all. But thanks I will bear your points in mind. I mean that sincerely. Loz x

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