Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cofty

  Shelby's style is so minor an issue by comparison

  Its not her style I was criticising, it was the far more important matter of the substance of her posts.

  It is astonishing to me that ex-cult members can't see the danger signs.
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  Lozhasleft

  I'm actually sad now that the band of atheists have rushed in, not to support the fact that Cofty was causing discord on a believer's thread, not to be objective, not to post on the original topic, but to resurrect more claims against AGuest and the 'other' forum. I give up.

  Loz x
• 

  bohm

  Guess this is simply an example of true believers (sorry, sharers) suffering at the hands of infidels.

  Any chance of tying this into bible prophecy?

  The viewpoint presented is 100% topical and relevant, it simply just not popular, so you try to dismiss it. good luck with that.
• 

  tec

  Q, that revelation resonates. The Spirit is neither male nor female, but encompasses both attributes. So your group could have easily been understanding an aspect of that... but then religion forced that realization to be denied. People can and do hear whilst part of a religion. I just think that they are usually led OUT if they do, because the religion's teachings are not always in line with the teachings of Christ or the truth. So they cannot follow both, and if they belong to Christ (and want to), then they follow Him.

  People who share their faith are not a cult. But as Loz has stated, this discussion has been had... and I believe, deleted.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  cofty

  Loz - please go back and read the thread.

  I engaged respectfully and asked intelligent questions and asked for clarification a number of times.

  PS and I were having a conversation when Shelby launched into one of her usual self-righteous sermons and dismissed all church-going christians.

  I responded with a reference one of her own outrageous claims. The reference was in context to this thread on the subject of the basis of faith.
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  Lozhasleft

  Ok, I will do Cofty and I'll think on it.

  Loz x
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  AGuest

  Cofty's past spirituality was indeed just dismissed because it was somehow 'tainted' because he was a member of a church.

  OMG, what the frick... WHAT "spirituality", dear NC (peace to you!). I'm the one who claims that we ALL are spirits and thus spirit[ual]. C himself denies his spirituality, NOT me. I did not dismiss HIS past spirituality. He commented:

  I mixed with many people who made the same claims during the years I was a Christian.

  And I asked:

  What people, C? People at your church?

  Because I don't KNOW what people he was referring to. People he worked with? People he met? Worshipped with? I ASKED. I THEN stated:

  Forgive me, but if that's the case, then I understand your skepticism

  AND...

  (and I mean no offense to ANYONE - just stating that I understand).

  Obviously, SOMETHING was lacking there... if it didn't cause him to HOLD ON to his "spirituality" (which is not something that one LOSES - THAT is yet another FALSE teaching of religion - spirituality is not something we HAVE... it's something we (ALL)... ARE: spirits, in "earthen vessels" - the body of flesh (with IT'S blood).

  I realize that of you often respond on threads where you've not read all of the posts (you often state this, so I'm not making it up, calling you out, or falsely accusing you). Perhaps that is what occurred here - that because the topic doesn't really interest you, you perhaps skimmed the contents? If so, I would ask you to take a moment, go back and read everything... so as to maybe have an understanding of what transpired. You might have to read another thread or two, as well, to get a true sense of just what's transpiring, but that's your prerogative - you don't have to, of course.

  But I in NO WAY dismissed C's "past spirituality - HE has dismissed it. All I stated is that I UNDERSTAND WHY he might have done that: those people who he claims "made the same claims during the years [he] was a Christian" apparently didn't convince him. That's on THEM, NOT on me.

  I am not those people.

  Again, peace to you... and I ask YOU, that if you cannot give me the benefit of the doubt off the top, then at least condescend to read what has fully transpired, rather than jumping to conclusions and accusing me of something that in NO way occurred.

  Thank you, truly, and, again peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  As to for you usual suspects... you boyz... c'mon, let's be real: no truce can occur, at least not right now. Not because I don't want one... but because you're incapable of such at this particular time. I just wish you would be HONEST... and TRUTHFUL... for ONCE in your posting lives... and just say that, say, "No. Nope. Won't do it. Can't do it." And stop blowing all of your "intellectual" smoke and melarkey all over the board and at these dear folks. Some here are really trying... but you want them to THINK that "AGuest and what she believes... is the reason there can be no truce!" "What 'AGuest' says" and "how 'AGuest' says it is the REALY problem."

  Oh, c'mon. Give these poor dear folks... and yourselves... a break - stop LYING to them (and possibly to yourselves). Every time you tell one lie... you have to create another one to justify that one: "It's not what she says, it's how she says it." "It's not what she thinks, it's that she thinks it." "I'm not interested in a thing she has to say - OMG, she just insulted me with something she said (okay, it wasn't TO me, but I still felt insulted!")

  There can be no truce... and you KNOW it... because YOU are incapable of being a part of one. You WANT to fight; you feel it your personal mission, vocation. You have said it before... and all of the "smart" talk doesn't cover it over.

  But, goodness gracious - have SOME integrity, won't you... and just speak the TRUTH? For ONCE in your "post-spiritual" lives?

  I mean, really, have SOME real cahones. Step up, be a man... and speak the TRUTH. Or shut the frick up about "AGuest." Truthfully, though, and this is MY truth (which I am NOT afraid to state)... I don't really have high hopes for you as to either: speaking the truth... or shutting up about "AGuest." I just don't believe you can do either.

  A slave of Christ,

  SA, who at least WILL speak the TRUTH... even if others don't like/can't handle it...
• 

  NewChapter

  Wow, AGuest, I think you need to calm down. You are attributing motives to people, and I'm kind of surprised you have come to those conclusions. You also are throwing around the 'lying' accusation quite a bit. Have you ever heard the saying "shooting a squirrel with an elephant gun?". My brother used to be this way. He would take the mildest slight as permission to just come at a person with both barrels. I used to use that phrase with him when he seemed to overreact to small things.

  As far as what I was saying about Cofty, and extending it to myself, I DO think that some past spirituality was dismissed quite easily. Now don't go ballistic on me, because I am telling you my viewpoint. Okay?

  I also said that others had a tendency to do that too---so I was not focusing on you specifically, but maybe using your post as a springboard to get an idea out there.

  I have run into this A LOT on this board. I also pointed out that we all dismiss the spiritual experience of JW's, Mormons (even though Q wrote a very moving story of a very spiritual moment he shared with others as a Mormon), and even Scientologists. That is acceptable too. It's only when we call some people's spiritual experience into question that it is viewed an intolerant, or insulting. I think that is interesting.

  When I was a JW, I was a true believer and very spiritual. I mediated, read my bible, made connections, prayed with a very open and receptive heart. There were times that I KNEW that Jehovah's hand was leading me. I would be filled with peace and confidence and a strong sense of protection. I don't think that most on this board would accept that as authentic, cuz it was the JW's, therefore my seeking was counterfeit as were my experiences, and I was somehow being blocked. I was not a person that thought of the governing body as my mediator, but I thought of Christ as my mediator. I know some here think that JW's dismiss Christ, but I did not. I thought about him a lot. I tried to emulate him in the decisions that I made. I hated the meetings, but I loved my time of meditation and prayer. The rest I felt was just an obligation, but not my personal relationship. That was mine. I did not have the same experience as some on this board did. I really worked on my relationship with God and his son.

  Now would it be proper to tell me that you understand why I'm no longer spiritual because of the religion I belonged to? Well, judging by your post above, I believe you would, because you will talk about false teachings. And that is the point. I think there is some false teaching going on right here---can I say so? Or would that get me into trouble and painted as an angry atheist? You say so quite freely when addressing teachings that don't coincide with your understanding. But I suspect that if I say it, it could become a real problem.

  I believe my experiences were very real, as the experience of others seems to be real. However if I had a heart that open and that accepting, how did I end up here? I was not always a JW. In fact, I probably spent most of my non-JW life more like you than identifying with any religion. And yet here I am. An atheist. My point being, that if this god draws those to him that are open, then why was I not drawn?

  The JW's did not 'stumble' me or turn me off to God. I was actually quite content, if not with the culture, then with my relationship with God. I did not set out to disprove gods, or to become an atheist. In fact, I was the last person to realize that I actually HAD become an atheist. And it wasn't anger driving me, but a connections of facts and logic that crept through. It felt like it happened instantaneously, but when I looked back, I realized it had been a long time coming, I was just in denial.

  Now will my past spirituality be invalidated because I came to a different conclusion? I think it may, if not openly, then in people's minds. Because that's how it would have worked for me when I believed. I would have thought there must have been something defective with the other person's faith or spirituality, because there is NO WAY if they knew TRUE spirituality they would have become an atheist.
• 

  tec

  I think some dismiss the spiritual experience of some - NOT due to their having been in religion - but because the person themselves dismisses it. You* don't believe you had an authentic spiritual experience... You* are the one dismissing it. You* state that you only thought that it was valid... but you know now that it was not.

  I do not dismiss anyone's spiritual experience... it is between them and the one they serve. But when someone else invalidates their own spiritual experience (and Cofty states that there is no such thing as this spirit, so how could he have known it...he could not; he can only have - according to his words - thought that he knew it. His words. His.)

  Peace,

  tammy

  *you in general