How do you keep your hopes up while in this doomed existence?
by sabastious 107 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
FlyingHighNow
Being grateful everyday for what you have and planning according to current and near future conditions is the best thing to do. We are not guaranteed that will live to see tomorrow anyway, Sab. So make the best of each day. Here in Grand Rapids this week, a young woman nearly stopped her car on the freeway to avoid a deer. She was hit by a pile up of cars and died on the scene. We never know when we will go.
I'm a believer. I still believe in living for today.
-
FlyingHighNow
I have to say, science belongs to everyone, not just atheists. Scientists don't always agree on things. They are human beings. Take what they say with the understanding that they don't know everything and a lot of science is educated guess.
-
sabastious
SAB..... Did your brain not once consider that maybe you are missing some facts ?
Starting out with an ad hominem, I win from the get go.
As you can see Sab, there will always be a spontaneous tendancy towards entropy. Defined neatly in the second law of thermodynamics.
Really, so life in the universe will NEVER find a solution to entrophy? Really? I don't think you have a basis to make this claim. I don't think you are factoring in a superceding law of the universe which is "necessity is the mother of invention." All problems have solutions, that's the faith I have, even entrophy.
Entropy is the tendency towards disorder and everything in the universe and the universe itself follows this law. As everything has a tendency to decay, there wont be anything left SAB, hence to suggest that we may have a solution is once again, another indicator of your lack of appreciation for what is being discussed.
What you call a lack of appreciation I call openmindedness, which you seem to serverly lack. The fact is that we have no idea what is in store for our future and the laws of entrophy are not an eternal obstacle. If humanity has taught us anything it's that we can solve any problem providing we don't go extinct. Even if we do another species will evolve and have a chance to solve the eternal problem of death.
We will cease to exist, our solution would cease to exist.... EVERYTHING in the universe will cease to exist..... Get the idea now?
Of course I do, and nothing you said so far has been anything I am unaware of as you purport. The freezing universe problem is one where we have a lot of time to prepare for. It would be like a world destroying asteroid coming our way, but that it won't arive for billions of years. What if we find a way to live in the cold of space? What about space stations?
Every atom in the universe will decay, every sun that produces atoms will eventually cease to exist and die out...... and a long time in the future, a looooooong looooooong looooong time in the future, everything will have decayed to nothing.
This is the kind of negative thinking I hear from a lot of scientists. They stubbornly don't take into consideration the HUMAN FACTOR, or the factor of high intelligence. What YOU fail to appreciate is that along with all this decay humanity is and will be watching it all happen. "Adversity reveals genius, prosperity conceals it." As oblivion creeps up we will always find a way out, this is human nature, to survive.
Number one, please dont say silly things like ... The laws of thermodynamics are wrong.... Especially if you have no alternate set of laws with evidence to back them and prove them tested, btw this would be a fine example of you contributing to society/science/mankind, all the best with that.
I don't think the laws of theromodynamics are wrong, not by any stretch of the imagination. I do not, however, count out the idea of using our intelligence to eventually find a way AROUND those laws which would be steps towards escaping the effects of entrophy altogether.
Second, this is a long time off, to think of it now is ridiculous. It is bazillions of years in the future. But then again the death of our sun, planet and galaxy is not that far off comparatively...... Oooh
The deep freeze IS just an example, replacing it with alternate doomsday scenarios is just as sufficient for the arguments. My point is that while it is a negative thought, there is no reason to believe that humanity is just waiting to be eternally destroyed. That's why the "God wouldn't let us die forever" argument is appealing. We don't have to think that we eventually are snuffed out of existence and are powerless to stop it. The largest piece of evidence for this is that we are STILL AROUND. I don't think it's beyond the strech of imagination to think that we are cared about. It doesn't even have to be God, it could be humanitarian-like aliens. Is there an alien organization called "Save-a-species" on the other side of the universe with a file called "Humanity"? Hope is hope, you don't have to call it God, you can call it salvation through love. Secularism wants to paint this picture where aliens would just harvest us, but I don't think that at all, I think that's just misdirection from the truth, which is that it's out THERE, in space.
Thirdly, most parents are sufficiently emotionally devloped to realise that such information is not appropriate for a young child, though still true. Just as telling a child the truth that when they die they will be consumed by maggots while their body lies in a dark wooden box is simply wrong, discussing the death of the universe can perhaps be dealt with at a later age also.
I never said I would use this information to scare my kid, I asked what if he brings it up? How do you handle it at the various junctures of adolescence?
How selfish to think the universe would alter due to our own desire to want to 'continue' in some form beyond death.
Selfish? I don't agree at all, we simply want to live as long as possible and if eternal life is possible many would take it (using the world selfish is weird). Even so, no one wants our species to go extinct and we will exhaust every option before we do and I think because of that our species will always be around no matter what.
Fourth, maybe buy some textbooks as information proves our situation to not be hopeless doom, but inprobable good fortune! What was the probability that in the galaxy we know of with life, your sperm survived an act of strange ritual intercourse between the sexes of a great ape species and you now are able to enjoy life and read this sentence.
Don't get me wrong, I am very thankful for my own life and I do see it as a type of good fortune. However not everyone is fortunate to have life, what about a child who grows up to be 5 years old and then dies of starvation in front of it's parents? Do you want to tell those parents that they are a fortunate case of improbability?
Doom and gloom is a perception, specifically yours. The universe was unlikely to ever have existed. Celebrate it and appreciate it by ENJOYING your short visit here.
It's soooo odd that you throw all the blame on me for bringing up a doom and gloom scenario that SCIENCE taught me about. Anyway, have a good day. I won't be responding to your reply to this message because I can tell it's simply not worth it.
Sabastious, have you considered cognitive behavior therapy? Basically, it's learning to change the way you think. A good psychologist and being willing to try can go a really long way toward allowing you to see the present and the future in a different, better light. It's not a quick fix. It takes some work, but it could be helpful. Research it a little. I'm sure there are other therapies that would help too. I'm just speaking from experience. If you're anxious and depressed, it can help with those feelings as well.
The only solutions are the one's that humans come up with in conjuncture with the Will of God. The more people who let go of the hand of God the less probable our future will be bright. I have a positive outlook because of my faith, but if I were ever to become a secularist I would be quite the depressed soul unless I was really making a BIG difference. There is too much suffering in this world to just focus on my own fulfilments unless that fulfilment is obtained by helping others.
Being grateful everyday for what you have and planning according to current and near future conditions is the best thing to do. We are not guaranteed that will live to see tomorrow anyway, Sab. So make the best of each day. Here in Grand Rapids this week, a young woman nearly stopped her car on the freeway to avoid a deer. She was hit by a pile up of cars and died on the scene. We never know when we will go.
I'm not sure how that is a positve thing. I personally am about avoiding senseless death because I still have a lot to accomplish on this planet. It seems plausible that as long as you are traveling on your path of destiny you don't have to worry about an unfortunate end such as the one you mentioned. Eternal vigilance is always rewarded in full. If you are NOT on your path of destiny then you are not holding the hand of God and therefore protection is limited.
-Sab
-
moshe
A few years from now the slow moving undersea plume of Fukushima radiation will begin hitting the west coast of Canada and the USA- anyone who is living in those areas will be assaulted with radiation that will force millions of people to leave their homes and accept a FEMA tent city in the desert as their refuge.
-
talesin
To address the OP.
How do non believers keep their hopes up?
I have lived my life around non believers. People whose children do not live in fear of death or world catastrophe. Here's different things I have observed over the years.
Watch the Lion King with your child - the "circle of life" is a wonderful and simplistic message, and kids get this life lesson at a very early age.
Pet fish? Hamster? Cat? The sorrow and healing from the loss of a pet is one way we learn that everything has a life and then dies. It is learned as a part of nature. Loss, and sorrow over that loss, are natural. Cry with them, hold them, and let them know that they will always have the good memories. Reinforce that the months/years of love we shared with these other-specied friends are never without worth - they are a wonderful gift that we are privileged to have, for however long those 'friends' are with us. Life lesson - live in the moment, do not waste energy/time in dwelling on the past or the future (grieving and planning are exceptions, of course, you hear what I'm saying).
When kids say things like "But what if you die like Fluffy?", they can be reassured that everyone dies some day, but that is something they will learn to deal with when it comes. Again, life lesson - don't worry about the inevitable future - these lessons are more easily absorbed at a young age, because they naturally implicitly trust you, the parent, and believe what you say (at least up until the age of 7-9, when cognitive skills really kick in).
As they grow, there will inevitably be lost loved ones. Do they need to have a firm belief in what happens after death? Usually, we need comfort, not explanations, when grieving. It is enough to be reassured that Uncle X or Mrs. E the teacher, is not in pain anymore (if they were ill), or that accidents happen, and they are tragic, but sometimes unavoidable. (circle of life once again applies).
As LeavingWT said "shit happens" ,,, it's a great philosophy to live by. And what Size said, well, it's my favorite quote and is in my diary, on my facebook, and I've passed it on here a few times. Emerson has some wonderful philosophies; did you know he was Thoreau's mentor? You mention philosophy often, and if you haven't read Emerson, pick up "Self-Reliance and Other Essays", it's a marvelous and easy read (and inexpensive at less than 5 bux at any book chain).
The only other thing I have to offer is that children ask questions, and we need only answer enough to satisfy their curiosity. As they grow older, the questions get more complex. A 5YO may want to know "where is Uncle X now?", and will be satisfied with 'no longer in pain, and is at rest'. By the time puberty is reached, they questions will get more difficult, and the spectrum of answers broader. By that age, your child will have the language skills and basic knowledge to be able, as part of the journey to adulthood, ask you for guidance in their personal search for truth. S/he will also be an adolescent who is secure and happy with who they are, and will not be easily frightened by the harsher realities of the world situation. They will know that it's important to revel in the joys of life, and also feel the pain, cry the tears of loss. Realize that the most important thing is to 'keep an even keel'. It's only human.
Hope that was a help.
xo
tal
-
AGuest
I sure can paint gloom pretty well, can't I? These ideas do not reflect how I view the world from my religious perspective. I am just running with some secular ideas.
WHEW! Well, I, for one, am VERY grateful for THAT clarification, dear one (the greatest of love and peace to you... and hope you're having a bit of a better day - LOLOLOL!). And yeah, you sure can - LOLOLOL! Shades of WTBTS "perhaps you will be saved" Armageddon propoganda! Ewwww... please... DON'T - LOLOLOL!
Shelby that was a beautiful post. Yet, with every baby that comes into the world how many are afflicted?
The thing is, dear one, do THEY view themselves as "afflicted"? Or do WE? Even unhealthy babies smile, know joy. It's when we tell them that there's something "wrong" with them do they question that joy. And we can tell it to them directly... or indirectly - they will "hear" what we say on it, regardless.
Is there a ratio somewhere I can lookup to know that happy familes are being created faster then afflicted familes breaking up?
I'm not sure, but I would say to stop looking at the U.S. to try and determine it. As a nation that touts itself as the biggest, bestest, richest, smartest, most advanced/progressive... we also produced the saddest, unhappiest, bipolar-ist, emotionally unbalanced, divorce-ist, medicated... folks on the planet. I don't think we're truly qualifed... or justified... in going around and lamenting over other folks' afflictions in the way we do. Heck, in many ways, we are SO much more "broken" than any lame, blind, malaria-stricken, HIV-infected... hungry... child of, say, sub-saharan Africa. Many of OUR afflictions are self-inflicted, inexcusable, or directly caused by a fellow countryman (via crime, etc). I think many elsewhere in the world feel just as sorry for us... as we do for them. Because while they know they suffer from infirmities of the flesh... they know WE suffer from infirmities of the mind... and heart. And, for some, spirit. Which is truly worse, dear one?
I don't mean to sound callus, but does the "yin/yang" principle strongly apply here?
I can't say; you would have to ask someone more knowledgeable in that. I do believe, though, that we who have the privilege/opportunity, whatever you want to call it... to live in the more-affluent parts of the world (and I based "affluence" on the lack thereof in the parts of the world you seem to be referring to)... have NO RIGHT... to bemoan many of the things we do. WE... don't have to drink water that we drew from a well several yards, if not miles... from where we live. OUR children aren't drinking water that cattle drank from just earlier. Here, we have the PRIVILEGE (IMHO), to sit on a porcelain throne, then push a little shiny handle... so as to watch OUR filth "go away." Everyone in the world is not so PRIVILEGED... and either one of us COULD have been born without it.
So, can't afford to upgrade to a new flatscreen? Heck, you have electricity!! Heating bill getting too high? Put on a sweater! Need a little extra dough? Do you not SEE all those empty plastic bottles lying around... that folks are willing to PAY for so as to recycle? I mean, at least we HAVE park benches and freeway underpasses. So "good" and "bad" is often only a perspective, dear one. HIV-stricken children in sub-sahara African aren't looking for a way to commit suicide - they're hoping for medicine so that they can KEEP living... in spite of perhaps losing both parents and having to take care of several younger siblings, while being only 11-years-old themselves!
I am not directing this at you, specifically, dear one... but to those who can't quite see their "fortune"... due all to often to being blinded by their "misfortune."
What am I to teach my son? That good things and bad things happen?
Yes! Because that is the TRUTH, is it not? And if you owe your son anything... isn't it the TRUTH? I mean, who else is gonna tell him? Who else SHOULD? (Not yelling - just emphasizing - LOLOL!).
How much control do I say he has?
Whatever is TRUE. If YOU believe he can make a difference, even if only minute... then HE will believe it... and TRY. He doesn't have to make a difference seen in/recognized by the WORLD... but only in his (perhaps very small)] part of it. Some say, "BE the change you want to see." I say "Be the change you want to BE. THEN perhaps you can be the change you want to SEE."
This really is a question of free will.
It IS!
Are the babies being afflicted because people are choosing to hurt children or are they simply existing exacty as they are supposed to exist?
Both, dear one. And that is the REALITY... of THIS world. And its ruler would have it no other way. What can YOU do against HIM? Maybe not EVERYTHING, but surely SOMETHING.
I learned a great deal aabout life by having less then desirable parents. I had to parent myself as a kid and my brother practically. I never really was a kid and my dad even told me that. He said I was to grow up as fast as possible and that being a kid was something that you just endured what was thrown at you (that's why I left home a year before becoming a legal adult). Because that's exacty what he did and therefore it was the only way he knew how to see me.
And now you are reaping the consequences of that: reverting back, perhaps even due to an unconscious rebellion because now you CAN (because you're now in control). The ire, resentment, chagrin, bad feelings, "bad taste", sadness, sorrow, anger, confusion, frustation... all that you now ALLOW yourself to feel because of your childhood... which you COULDN'T allow yourself to feel back then... is coming to the fore. Because you WANT it to: YOU are in control now and it's OKAY now to let yourself feel these things. BUT... are they BENEFITTING you, NOW? I don't think so. Will they benefit your SON? I don't think so. What WOULD benefit you BOTH... is to learn from those experiences. NOT how to be a belatedly-resentful SON... but a FATHER... who would never do similar to HIS son.
The cycle is only broken, dear one, when we CHOOSE to stop looking BACK... as WELL as forward. That creates a circle! If we only look FORWARD, however... then we're creating a straight line... and AWAY from what was behind us... all the hurt, pain, disgust, anger, frustration, confusion, etc..... not repeatedly back toward that.
My childhood was no bowl of cherries, dear one. No walk in the park. Not even. So WHAT? Children in Rwanda are dying! I did not die and I'm not dying... and neither are my children. What, then, TRULY... do I have to complain about? That was then. My parents did they best THEY could - that THEY knew how. Which was... well, I won't go into that... but I know was the "product" of what they learned/received from THEIR parents. Should I continue the "sickness" and visit what *I* hated upon MY children? In ANY way, size, shape, or form? Or should I BE the parent... at ALL times... that I wished MY parents had been? Which is better... for my children... so possibly THEIR children?
WE choose, dear one, as to our own happiness. No one else can make another happy. True, others can CONTRIBUTE... but one has to be ready to receive that, yes? And that means one has to desire happiness to BEGIN with.
It starts... and other things end... with YOU, dear one. YOU decide whether your perspective HAS to be shaped by your FATHER'S paradigms on live, love, God, parenting, etc., or your own. YOU decide whether you are GOING to be happy... regardless of what may or may not be going on around you, in your world, or the world outside of your world... or whether you're not. It's not on your father, your son, your wife, your boss, your friends... or even God or Christ. It is upon YOU to decide.
Because the free-will IS yours. Use it wisely.
I hope this helps and, again, PEACE (truly!) to you and your household!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-
leavingwt
“Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.”
-- Mark Twain
-
jgnat
I am going to note where science and the bible come together, as we consider the sparrow..
I like Schweitzer’s liberal summary of the Christian message as “reverence for life”. I live in a part of the world where nature reigns supreme. The call of the wild is all about that struggle for life. Every spring the sparrow hurls out its song of love and renewal. In our short season, these sparrow couples will raise several families, just in case the first batch are taken by a predator. Which is also blazing with life and survival.
There is no room in nature for self-pity. That simply marks you as a meal for something that wants to live larger than you do.
I suspect your message of gloom is while wearing the cloak of what you imagine the “scientific” perspective must be. But as you can see, observable nature is bursting with optimism.
That “brain drain” article is bad science. We will continue to have very bright and marginally bright people with everyone in between living side by side generation after generation. It is not specialization that helps a species survive, but flexibility. If we enter an age that requires greater intelligence, we will adapt to that, too.
I’d like to broaden your perspective a bit. Karen Armstrong introduced me to the concept of religious nihilism, that motivates extremists for example, to strap bombs to their chest. These nihilists have given up all hope for our present world, and indeed hope to hasten along its demise.
We also have secular optimists, who cheerfully search for ways to make our world better. I am consoled by listening to their presentations. My current favorite, an Indian entrepreneur who is providing sanitary pads for the rural poor.
Religious Nihilism
http://www.project-reason.org/forum/viewthread/17339/
Secular Optimism
www.ted.com
Being human, we show an unhealthy fascination with world annihilation. And yet we live on, generation after generation. I am old enough to have lived through the cold war, fear of nuclear annihilation, and the OPEC oil crisis. I am a grandma now, and my granddaughter is burdened with saving the world, by recycling, conservation, and preventing global warming. I am confident she will crawl out from under that burden as I did mine.
“it's how this world treats each other that gets me down” - Sab
Doctors without Borders
www.kiva.org
"What do the people at the bottom do? Feel good they aren't antelopes?" - Sab
Think of our Indian entrepreneur. We all strive. We all dream. Even from the bottom. -
FlyingHighNow
I'm not sure how that is a positve thing. I personally am about avoiding senseless death because I still have a lot to accomplish on this planet. It seems plausible that as long as you are traveling on your path of destiny you don't have to worry about an unfortunate end such as the one you mentioned. Eternal vigilance is always rewarded in full. If you are NOT on your path of destiny then you are not holding the hand of God and therefore protection is limited.
-Sab
I believe in God, Sab. However I do NOT believe that his protection for us, after we die, is limited at all. I'm a universalist. God's love is unconditional and surpasses anything human beings can understand. I don't care how faithful a follower you dream you are, you could die at any time. I don't dwell on that as a negative. It just makes me feel much more appreciative of every blessing I have right now.