Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Qcmbr

  Recovery, since I have no belief in Jehovah nor any other bronze age gods the term miracle and magic, as applied in myths is one and the same, they are both supposed suspensions of the laws of physics and the occurrence of an event emanating purely from willpower. I don't think the term 'miracle' is a preserve of Xians alone so why do you claim that it is? I find your wordplay a fairly common JW style. Are you trained to 'strain at a gnat' to make a point when really the important stuff is about love and actions ( at least that was my overall reading of the NT) , so for example if you wished to discuss how JWs do lots of charitable public service ( say soup kitchens, saving lives by giving blood, litter picks, battered women's refuges, hospitals etc.) then I'd be more impressed than what you've said so far. To summarise.

  JWs don't have any miracles going on.

  JWs believe magic is ongoing ( odd - I've not seen any fire from heaven, sticks turning to snakes but maybe it's just only in secret places )

  JWs are desperate to be right and will push the primacy of JW thought even if they themselves get new light and reverse a teaching ( so showing that they were zealously preaching falsehood ). Since JWs cannot be trusted to remain steadfast on any doctrine ( they may receive new light at any time ) then it seems rather silly to make a tenuous semantic stand on the definition of a miracle, a definition you JWs don't own.

  You are not providing a good witness nor are you supposed to associate with apostates so you are simply dishonouring your own faith anyway. I will discuss your example with JWs next time they are at my door.
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  sizemik

  Your last statement laced with profanity and over the top adjectives leads me to believe you have an issue wit the supposition of the existence of an almighty God.

  "Laced" huh? . . . I only see one profanity actually . . . and it's not directed at you. But your problem is becoming ever clearer. Read your own posts if you want over-the-top adjectives.

  I'm glad you at least acknowledged the existence of Almighty God was merely "supposition." We don't all "suppose" the same as you do. Thank you. Case closed.

  No, I don't have any issues with your beliefs, but I'm not here to preach my doctrine.

  You should join the debate club . . . it helps to avoid accusing people of logical fallacies using logical fallacies.

  You should also stop digging . . . I can no longer see you.
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  jwfacts

  Is jwfacta humble enough to admit he was in error?

  I have no issue admitting when I am wrong, and encourage people to point out errors so that I can always improve the information on my site. The Watchtower has issues deep enough to destroy itself over time with facts alone, so there is no reason to be sensational or dishonest when presenting the information.

  However, you have not proven your case, and I do not believe the statement to be technically wrong. Magic and miracles are the same, only a miracle is generally thought of as provided by a different deity that ones own. Pharoah and his priests would claim they were practicing miracles and Aaron was using magic.

  A definition of a magician or wizard " is someone who uses or practices magic that derives from supernatural or occult sources". I agree with you that the conotation will usually be an occult source, but it can also be the supernatural, which includes God.

  Anyway, you completely miss the point of the article, so let me make it again. Sparlock is not magic. He is a plastic toy that stimulates the imagination. A JW child can play with it without drawing on Satanic powers. He can say Sparlock uses Jehovah's power and is good, or Satan's power and is bad. Either way, Sparlock is a toy that can be part of a balanced upbringing.

  This thread is no longer going anywhere, because as with other threads you have started, you have a fixation and refuse to consider any other viewpoint. There are a string of comments I added that you still have not addressed:

  Those from the Bible that the Watchtower say belonged to God's organisation both OT and NT were given powers. It is very revealing that the Watchtower leaders are unable to exhibit any such power themselves. Why can't Watchtower leaders exhibit any of the powers God used to identify his people in the past?

  Recovery - "Magic is a manipulation of the relationship between the terrestrial and spiritual realms merely for worldly purposes. Divine miracles creatively exploit this relationship for the sake of human salvation." What Scripture is that from? Or is that some doctrine of yours to help justify the difference?

  How do you justify watching Disney, since it defines itself as magic?
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  still thinking

  There are two men, both throw a stick to the ground and it becomes a snake. Both claim that their God empowered them to do this.

  Using this event alone, which man was using Magic and which performed a Miracle?

  I would say that both of these used magic. Magic relies on suggestion and belief to be successful.

  The fact that some people believe that this really happened is magic at its best...they didn't even need to show you the trick.
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  Recovery

  Where are all those statements I havent addressed. And everything on Disney isnt magic so I dont see what youre getting at. I simply used a definition I found online just like you are doing. What is your point?

  Meanwhile you havent addressed my post on miracles and JWs, my car illustration, or my thesarus references. Not to mention the numerous Biblical statements that condemn magic and how it would be contradictory for Aaron to be a priest and not follow the levitical law code
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  Qcmbr

  Recovery - I see you ignored my post. Fine.

  If you wish to say that miracles are the manifestations of your version of Jehovah then you also have to explain why you don't believe that any miracles are occurring today because that is tantamount to saying that your Jehovah is not manifesting his power via the JWs. In short you are unable to receive revelation, inspiration, new light, gifts of the spirit, answers to prayers, guidance from prayers. It's just you, a canon of scriptures copied, codified and ratified by bishops from other faiths ( they certainly weren't JWs) containing numerous interpolations of men and no divine way to verify what is authentic and what is false. Your case fails.
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  Qcmbr

  We can go even further. Gods people, according to the bible, record their dealings with god, their instructions on how to live, their revelations from god not simply for their benefit but as a testament to the world. If the JWs aren't producing any scriptures, no written records of their dealings with Jehovah, then how can they be said to be testifying of him. If the Israelities of biblical times were happy to simply preach we would have no OT, no knowledge of Jehovah, if the early xian authors didn't record their dealings with God via Jesus but simply preached we would have no NT and by definition we would have no JWs since you are a product of the book. It looks like JWs are trying to make a virtue of having nothing to write about, the lack of divine interaction means the JWs can produce no scripture, they can make no lasting impact, their testimony is simply the spoken word alone, a spoken word that has no defined stance. JWs have no publications of their own that are inspired of God.
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  mP

  How exactly did the Egyptian priests manage to turn their sticks into snakes ? I personally could not understand why the Bible lied and said the Egyptian magicians also managed to change their sticks into snakes. Would it have been more embarrassing if they couldnt ? I guess when you get bullshit on themind you lose track of reality and make everything up and it turns out stupid.
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  mP

  How exactly did the Egyptian priests manage to turn their sticks into snakes ? I personally could not understand why the Bible lied and said the Egyptian magicians also managed to change their sticks into snakes. Would it have been more embarrassing if they couldnt ? I guess when you get bullshit on themind you lose track of reality and make everything up and it turns out stupid.
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  Qcmbr

  What's more worrying is why the supposed creator of a vast cosmos thought that turning a stick into a snake was all that impressive. The OT god is a cheap magician who kills the people who don't immediately get the message. I'm presuming God wanted to punish Egypt so he deliberately hardened Phaoroh's heart while showing a very obtuse set of parlour tricks that could be replicated by court magicians - ergo not very impressive stuff. He repeats this pattern when Jesus' first miracle is to make booze rather than something vaguely useful like cure the world of malaria. The bible god is portrayed as a poor showman ( walking on water, spit magic, healing hankies, columns of fire etc.) with an overriding love of blood and death rather than a wise, divine being converting humanity to his will by acts of miraculous benevolence.