Any actual Witnesses here?

by trthskr 236 Replies latest jw friends

Azazel

trthskr FYI i have been a/ex jW for 40+ years and in that time i now how to speak/discern the "language" of a JW and friend regardless of your statement that your not a JW it absolutely oozes from your terminology and more so from your attitude. You have JW written all over you!
why not do yourself a favour and just go away? you dont begin to understand the hurt that many have suffered at the hands of JW's. Just go back to door knocking rather than knocking people you cant even begin to understand!
again a picture expresses so much more than any words can.
Just for you
Childish? YES but then im free to say what i want here too
Az ( this has got to piss you off enough to PM me!)
Knowsnothing

doesn't give you a good reason to put down others who have found happiness and something that works in their lives. -trthskr
If that is all it is, then no problem. But, Watchtower claims it has the truth alone. Do you realise how small, petty, and unjust that would make out God to be, to only select a few people to be able to interpret this special knowledge of salvation?
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which is the true religion I should join and why. -trthskr
You're just waiting for someone to give you the answers. If you stick around, you can see why the Watchtower isn't the true religion. You can then continue on your journey and perhaps begin to see reality in a whole other light.
You know what I find interesting, trthskr? Russell began his investigation of the Bible in part because he started with the premise that Hell was a punishment a loving God could not serve. I ask you, do you believe God is anymore just or loving for destroying 99.9% of the world's population because they don't believe the JW's? Mind you, baptised JW's comprise .01% of the world's population. So even you aren't guaranteed salvation. Go figure...
AGuest

I'm still waiting for someone to show me where in the Bible it says people are perfect and don't make mistakes.
The same place it says that:
1. The WTBTS is the "Truth"...
2. They consist of, include and/or are led by those who are "anointed"...
3. There is a "Governing Body"...
4. There are "elders" who are "masters over [others'] faith"... versus merely overseers over the "distribution" (of items donated to the widows and orphans)...
5. Those who belong to Christ are to be taught by anything OTHER than an anointing with holy spirit...
6. That the Bible is God's Word...
7. The NEW Law and its covenant are what is written on paper, versus on hearts...
8. Christ "returned" in 1914 (although he only returns once... and that has not occurred yet)...
9. Christ began ruling in 1914, versus from the time he entered before God and received his kingship, which was evidence by the outpouring of holy spirit at PENTECOST 30 CE, which outpouring was the EVIDENCE that he received his kingdom... and began ruling... so as to go subduing IN THE MIDST OF HIS ENEMIES...
10. That he was put to death in 33 C.E.; he was not; it was 30 CE - he began his ministry in 27 CE at the age of 30...
And so much more. Much more. You will ALL of this... in the same place that you find where the Bible it says people are perfect and don't make mistakes. Nowhere in the Bible. Doesn't stop them from teaching it, though, does it? You WILL find that the Bible says "It is impossible for God... TO LIE." Meaning, holy spirit... and the Holy Spirit... cannot lie, either. Why? Because... it's impossible. So, the fact that the WTBTS has "new light," should tell you something: God's light... does not change.
Yes, yes, I know... our "understanding" of it can change. How can that BE, though, if the understanding was received FROM God? It cannot not. It can ONLY change... if we are "leaning upon [our] OWN understanding." Yes? Which means, they're leaning upon... wait for it... their OWN understanding. Yes? Which is why their understanding "changes"? Yes? But if they RECEIVE their understanding from GOD... how can it change? Does God lie? Does He change? Does truth change? Does HIS truth change? Can the understanding given to one by HIM... change?
You people are focusing on the wrong things- people erring which is only human.
People err, yes. Humans... err. The Holy Spirit... and holy spirit... both of which come forth FROM God... does NOT err.
You do not want to focus on what the Bible teaches, just WTS, GB, individuals, etc. And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which is the true religion I should join and why.
Okay, then, here is the TRUTH:
First, what the Bible teaches is NOT the truth. The Bible only tells you about the ONE... who IS the Truth (John 14:6)... and teaches the truth (Proverbs 8:1-4). HIS spirit... the spirit OF the Truth. Per THAT One... and per His Father, there IS no "true religion" for you to "join." The ONLY religion sanctioned by God... was that which required worship at the temple in Jerusalem, through the priest and sacrificial offering arrangement. Once that institution was rejected (when God's spirit LEFT it and entered into Christ)... that "form of worship" was no longer acceptable. From then, the worship that became "acceptable" was that which is done BY SPIRIT... IN the Truth... and compels one to look after widows and orphans, etc.
The only "thing" to "join"... is the Body of Christ... which one does by joining CHRIST... which one does by being IN UNION with him. One comes into union with Christ by:
Showing themselves FAITHFUL, even in the LEAST things... including partaking of his flesh and blood...which he COMMANDED those who love him to DO. Such ones REMAIN in union by CONTINUING to eat his flesh and drink his blood ("DO this")... AS WELL as by doing all of the "other" things he commanded (John 14:23): including but not necessarily limited to love God, love one another... even one's enemies... such that one WILL forgive, release, not judge... and observe the "fast" of JAH (Isaiah 57). Most importantly... LISTEN TO HIM, HIS voice... WHEN HE SPEAKS TO YOU... and NOT the voice(s) of "strangers" (Matthew 17:5; John 10:1-15, 27). You can't truly HEAR his voice, however, if you don't even have enough faith to KNOW that although he died... he LIVES... and SPEAKS (Hebrews 12:25).
God does not dwell in handmade temples: through Christ, He dwells... in His PEOPLE (1 Corinthians 3:16). With THEM, they make up the "temple" of God: Christ, the Cornerstone; the Apostles, the Foundation; the Prophets and other faithful ones, Pillars; the rest, Living Stones. A "place"... for God to occupy... by SPIRIT. So, there is no "where" to go away TO, dear one... nor any "what" to join... but only a WHOM. To go away to... and join.
Because why others may actually have "sayings" of everlasting life... HE is the ONLY One who can GIVE it to you.
Just because you people couldn't live by Bible standards and do what is pleasing to God, doesn't give you a good reason to put down others who have found happiness and something that works in their lives.
This is absolutely true! However, while such ones do NOT have that right, as you say... two things are also true:
1. YOU... came HERE; not the other way around. These here did not seek YOU out. Once you realized what was here... YOU could have just as easily bowed out and moved on. You did not. YOU challenged the dear ones HERE... based on YOUR standard. YOU brought YOUR beliefs HERE. They did not take theirs to YOU.
2. Just because something brings another "happiness" and "works" in their lives... doesn't mean it's truth... or even right. That is something YOU folks preach and teach, is it not? If that is NOT correct... then YOU folks need to stop judging those who tell YOU that they've found happiness and THEIR lives work... WITHOUT you/the WTBTS. Otherwise, you (and they) are hypocrites... yes? And doesn't the Bible quote Christ as saying, "Beward the leaven of the Pharisees... which is HYPOCRISY!"???
You are all waiting here like vultures, for someone to swarm on who just wants to chat with others in an intelligent and mature fashion.
Some, yes. But that's not what happened here, dear one. YOU brought the challenge and false accusations. Did you truly think you could go visit some folks you don't even know and do that... and have them NOT respond by putting you in your place?? Actually, I think you did. Like most JWs, you think it's entirely okay to waltz into someone else's property... even onto someone else's board... into someone else's space... and tell them what YOU think/believe... and then consider them "goats" and fodder for destruction... if they don't agree with you. Indeed, wish it FOR them.
But let me ask you: (1) where is the LOVE in that? (2) where is FORGIVENESS and releasing in that? (3) where is the GOOD news in that? (4) Where... pray tell me... is CHRIST in that? Tell me, please... other than the hypocritical religious leaders who sought to mislead God's sheep and shut up the kingdom of the heavens before them... WHO DID CHRIST JUDGE OR CONDEMN for not listening to him??? He didn't even judge THESE. Who, of those who left him and went off... did HE follow and cahole... and call down evil upon? Did he not let them GO... while he went on with HIS business? What of those of whom he said to his disciples: "He that is not AGAINST you... is FOR you?"
You came to judge... and condemn... with your WTBTS rhetoric, dear trthskr. Don't take issue because you reaped... what you tried to sow.
It's almost funny- all of the people on this forum, but it's just too pathetic and sad to be funny.
Unfortunately, I think most feel the same about you. At least, most who posted on this thread. I would wager a whole lot more who didn't, as well. Personally, I don't think that of you... or any here. I think it's a condescending, judgmental, unkind, and unloving position... and not reflective of Christ. Except as to the "scribes and Pharisees... and corrupt priests"... some of whom YOU follow and give YOUR loyalty to. They are sad... and pathetic... and reprehensible.
Again, peace to you... and again, may YOU be granted ears, if you truly wish them, to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
dontplaceliterature

trthskr
You are absolutely correct that The Bible does not ever say that men are perfect, and I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree with you.
However, the problem is that The Governing Body Of Jehovah's Witnesses demands absolute submission to their directives as if they were perfect. They claim to speak for Jehovah - to be his mouthpiece on earth today. Is this not a powerful claim? Where does The Bible say that such an organization would be necessary for communicating God's will to mankind? Doesn't The Bible clearly state that Jesus Christ is the Head of man and the congregation? Why would he need an organization on Earth to direct the spirituality of his followers when Jehovah's Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of doing so? You ask us where should you go if Jehovah's Witnesses do not have "The Truth", but I ask you where in The Bible is one demanded to follow any man except Christ? Where in The Bible is anyone commanded to join a church or a formal group in order to be accepted by Christ?
It wouldn't be so bad if The Organization afforded its members the freedom to express themselves where The Scriptures allow for personal interpretation and exercise of conscience. Yet, they consistently attempt to micromanage the lives of those under their leadership - in areas such as career choice, marriage, entertainment, recreation, romance, and the like. They force their members through social pressure and coercion to participate in activities that are not commanded in The Bible. They pile guilt on the members in an effort to shame them into "doing more in The Work Of The Lord" - as if any amount of work they do would ever earn them a place in Paradise. Remember, forgiveness is a FREE GIFT. IT'S NOT FREE IF YOU HAVE TO EARN IT!!! They abuse their authority over the the congregation, and when anyone dares to resist or stand up for their freedom, they are quickly reminded of their place - this is especially so with women.
Regarding their prophetic mistakes, see below:
[Secretary Treasurer of The Society, Grant Suiter said:] "Man cannot lay down qualifications that the Scriptures do not." Yet his own testimony, as well as that of two preceding officials, is that 'only by the Watchtower Society's publications can anyone have a right understanding of Scripture.' Though false prophecy was advanced, "absolute acceptance [of such] as Truth was imposed upon all Jehovah's Witnesses at the time," and this firmly declared to be right. The Secretary Treasurer asserts that "the overall result is what is important," hence the organization should not be judged adversely because they promulgated errors on "incidental points" as long as the "main thing, worship of Jehovah God" was conveyed. It would be unfair to equate the importance of those errors with the main message. "There is no comparison," the Secretary Treasurer said.
This latter claim is all very well of itself. But Suiter's own testimony...shows that, whereas the organization asks for such tolerance and balanced assessment for itself as its rightful due, it denies this to others. While asking for tolerance for itself, it does not grant it to any member who objects to, and who cannot accept, erroneous teachings. For them the result is disfellowshipping, being cut off as worthy of death. This is the case no matter how thoroughly the individual might accept the "main" point of the message, or how sincerely and devotedly he or she might "worship Jehovah God." No, the person must accept the whole message, lock, stock and barrel, just as the organizational messenger saw fit to present it, errors included, with expulsion as the alternative. The organization discounts as only "incidental" the errors it publishes, yet, if those same errors are not accepted or are objected to, they paradoxically become of enormous importance, sufficient to warrant taking disfellowshipment action.
This strange thinking makes it appear that God is very displeased with any person who fails to accept errors that a claimed messenger of God may speak in His name, displeased that the person should insist on 'testing everything and holding fast only to which proves good and true,' genuinely from God. Such person, if put out by the organization, God would not judge worthy of life. Though it may seem incredible, the ones giving this testimony evidently saw no inconsistency in all this.
--In Search of Christian Freedom, Raymond Franz, pp 28-29
The height of hypocrisy.
I really hope that you make an honest probe into some of the facts that are discussed on this website. There really is a lot of "garbage" as you point out, but you'd be surprised how much information can be proven factually. To that end, please go spend some time at jwfacts.com. There is no emtion or sensation contained within the articles there, and you will feel less like an outsider, and more like a private observer.
Perhaps you would understand some of the radicalism on the pages of this forum if you knew the pain and hurt that many of our members have been through. Not everyone knows best how to express that, and will sometimes end up looking childish/foolish/silly to someone who hasn't spent much time here. I know I struggled with your same feeligns when I started posting on this forum.
You say that you have educated yourself on this issues, yet you refuse to answer any of our questions to you. Instead, you insult us. That's what a coward does. Step up and prove some of these claims wrong, rather than deflecting them by simply saying "The Organization Isn't Perfect." Don't you think we've heard that A MILLION TIMES?! We all know it isn't perfect. If it was, we wouldn't be here.
Good Luck. Don't think you'll save anyone by posting apologists bologna here. We'll have none of it!
sooner7nc

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120102141449AAaL3sb
Check this out trthskr.
I am not a baptized Witnesses or even go to meetings. That's why I'm here.
You're also a liar.
TD

there are no more prophets spoken to directly by God after the apostles.
--And if you truly believe that and are not simply invoking this fact as ad hoc excuse, the inescapable logical corollary is that no one today has a legitimate claim to authority commensurate with that of the Apostles.
All Christian religions, including Jehovah's Witnesses would be simply Bible Students whose Divine guidance is entirely passive inasmuch as it is dependent upon reading and understanding the Bible.
But Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be much more than that. They claim to be "Jehovah's Organization" not just in a generic sense, but as an earthly counterpart to God's heavenly organization. They claim an authority at least equal to that of the Apostles and arguably greater.
They cross the line between passive and active guidance regularly and often. If you cannot see how a claim of being Jehovah's "Channel of communication" on earth today crosses that line, I would question whether you even understand the distinction
trthskr

AGuest, the website is Jehovah's-witness.net. Not ex jehovah'switness, disfellowhippedwitness, antiwitness, etc. You have made it into an anti-Witness forum because you didn't have the respect to let them have their own forum or even topics on this one. I'll start my own JW forum and be the mod and admin and just delete anyone's account who would spread their hate and lies.
Dontplaceliterature- it's the same as any organization. It has to have a leadership who sets standards and rules. It makes a lot more sense than having so much dissention and chaos if everyone just started interpreting or living their own way. If they don't like it they can leave. No one forces them to stay.
Aussie Oz

Truthseeker...
may i suggest that you as you have an interest in second advent religions (return of christ religions) that you dig out some history books or use the internet to research the following names:
William Miller, George Storrs, Nelson H Barbour, Charles Taze Z Russell and a number of people that will be included in reference.
I do suggest you read the WT 'proclaimers book' and all the wiki and other websites dedicated to discussing these men. I also suggest you start looking for the holes in the JW account compared to the documented facts of these men and their movement. I think you will see that the JWs are no more special or 'have it' than anyone else decended from those men.
As for the point about where in the bible does it claim perfection for men...a sad and sorry excuse for lies i am afraid. Poor old Harold camping, i am sure you must know him, well... he was just imperfect! It matters not that he managed to rake in millions of dollars and ruined many peoples lives does it? The poor fool meant well so thats ok then?
The WT and JWs never claim perfection indeed. But do cover up many many lies and flip flops by proclaiming to have 'new light' on the subject and saying at best when caught."wellllllll, we never said we were perfect!
Thats as lame as a criminal claiming ''the devil made me do it"
If you are going to engage with us, do it by studying each subject one by one. Perhaps be smart enough to open a new thread on one particular subject at a time. Approach us with politeness and respect rather than opening with name calling and you will get respect back.
You don't get to come onto a forum, insult people and expect to be taken seriously or respectfully. If you want truth, be nice as the new person. Thats how the whole world operates.
Oz
charlie brown jr.

Thank you For Your Correct and Accurate History about JWN... LOL!!!
Jeffro

I'm still waiting for someone to show me where in the Bible it says people are perfect and don't make mistakes.
The same argument can be made by any person of any religion or philosophical movement.
However, one of the most significant problems with JW beliefs is that core JW doctrines, including their claim of being God's organisation, specifically contradicts scripture.

Any actual Witnesses here?

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