Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex 84 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • bioflex
    bioflex

    @Vander: sorry 4 the late reply, my internet is down, and i have to go to the cafe each night.

    Perhaps you know of other things we all can conclude without adding ideas to the text.

    Mat 25:41 - 46 : Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.


    From this text we can asume that the rich man in Lazarus's case was being tormented not because he was rich but rather because he negleted his fellow man to suffer even though he had more than enough to spare.


    Why do you think Jesus preached (Hades) Hell-fire to the Hell Fire preachers of His day? Was He trying to help them get their message across?

    You might want to look into the scriptures, and see how many times Jesus spoke about the end and punishment, most of them were not directed to the pharisees. And Jesus often called the pharisees hipocrates because they knew the law but did not follow them.

    I suppose revelations does talk in general about punishment for all men alike, and you should find ETERNAL TORMENT for both some humans and the devil too.

    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Like i said, their beliefs mostly went contrary to the things Jesus taught, concerning issues of the ressurection, and the afterlife too. I am not famiar with their belief of eternal torment but one thing was clear, they did not even abide by their own laws and teachings.

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    Again ETERNAL FIRE/TORMENT is stressed on here, especially for those who take the mark of the beast. And the devil himself being put into the fire. You would realise that the

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    "the commendable fraud artist"

    I thought this passage was obvious, no? If you read the whole of Luke 16, Jesus talks of one man not being able to serve two masters equally. In the passage a fraudster is considersed wise by his fraudulent master because they share the same qualities --> BAD/EVIL. Do you think a desent master would have commemded the fraudster?

    It shows how the pharisees decieve themselves thinking they are serving God, when they could saved themselves all the trouble and live as the evil men they are. That way they would not get disappointed when they are condemned in judgement. But we already know they are hipocrates right?.

  • designs
    designs

    bioflex-

    You are making the assumptions regarding the Pharisees based on the portrayal of them from the New Testament which is a highly distorted and inaccurate depiction-

  • designs
    designs

    The blatant hypocracy and anti-semitism of Jesus and the Gospel writers-

    Jesus accuses the Pharisees of being formalists and overtly pious and yet to be a Messiah he had to be those exact things- an Orthodox Jew observing all Laws and Rituals.

    "Paradoxically, despite the abuse and scorn supposedly heaped by Jesus in the Gospels on 'the scribes, Pharisees (Rabbinic sages) and hypocrites' he himself preached the very doctrines that they enunciated. This irreconcilable contradiction has been a source of much embarrassment to the fundamentalist Christian scholars." page 102, The Book Of Jewish Knowledge by Ausubel

    The Talmud asks the question- 'Who are the genuine Pharisees? Those who do the will of the Father in Heaven because they love Him.'

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Bioflex,

    <<Sorry 4 the late reply, my internet is down, and i have to go to the cafe each

    No problem. Try paying your bills once in a while Fella. ;)

    Re: Other things we all can conclude without adding ideas to the text

    <<From this text we can asume that the rich man in Lazarus's case was being tormented not because he was rich but rather because he negleted his fellow man to suffer even though he had more than enough to spare.>>

    Plenty of Atheists give to the poor Bio. Btw, shouldn't you be giving the money you spend on internet and cable tv to the poor to assure you have a spot in Abraham's Bosom?

    I see you like playing "Sherlock Hemlock" with this passage. You really have no idea how much the rich man gave to charitable causes. Nor do you know how much he gave to Lazarus. Perhaps he gave much and often and that's why those who laid him at the rich man's gate daily continued to bring him. Let's not assume anything about the rich man's character...or about Lazarus' character or the reasons for their post-death situations, other than what the text reveals. (See verse 25)

    Why do you think Jesus preached (Hades) Hell-fire to the Hell Fire preachers of His day? Was He trying to help them get their message across?

    <<You might want to look into the scriptures, and see how many times Jesus spoke about the end and punishment, most of them were not directed to the pharisees. >>

    You did not answer the question Bio.

    <<Like i said, their beliefs mostly went contrary to the things Jesus taught, concerning issues of the ressurection, and the afterlife too. I am not famiar with their belief of eternal torment but one thing was clear, they did not even abide by their own laws and teachings.>>

    Eternal torment was not derived from scripture, but from Babylonian and Greek mythology and adopted by certain religious factions within Judaism and promoted especially during the intertestamental period.

    Re: "the commendable fraud artist"

    <<I thought this passage was obvious, no? If you read the whole of Luke 16, Jesus talks of one man not being able to serve two masters equally. In the passage a fraudster is considersed wise by his fraudulent master because they share the same qualities.>>

    More assumption Bio. Jesus didn't have anything to say about the steward's character. However, even fraudsters usually don't commend those that defraud them.

    <<Do you think a desent master would have commemded the fraudster?>>

    Note that Jesus used the fraudster as an example for believers to follow in earning heavenly rewards. Think about it.

    Vander

    P.S. Again, let's look at the other scriptures, one passage at a time, once we deal fully with the passage at hand...to be sure we are not letting assumptions pass for truth.

  • bioflex
    bioflex

    Plenty of Atheists give to the poor Bio. Btw, shouldn't you be giving the money you spend on internet and cable tv to the poor to assure you have a spot in Abraham's Bosom?

    I see you like playing "Sherlock Hemlock" with this passage. You really have no idea how much the rich man gave to charitable causes. Nor do you know how much he gave to Lazarus. Perhaps he gave much and often and that's why those who laid him at the rich man's gate daily continued to bring him. Let's not assume anything about the rich man's character...or about Lazarus' character or the reasons for their post-death situations, other than what the text reveals. (See verse 25)

    well you really dont know how much i give to those in need, and i use my internet mostly for work, any other reason is secondary. if i gave that money out i would not have any to give next time though will i?

    Eternal torment was not derived from scripture, but from Babylonian and Greek mythology and adopted by certain religious factions within Judaism and promoted especially during the intertestamental period.

    you might want to read yourself some Revelation. I suppose Babylonian and greek mythology has something to do with it right? Its supposed to be the revelation of Jesus Christ about the end of days, and judgement.

    More assumption Bio. Jesus didn't have anything to say about the steward's character. However, even fraudsters usually don't commend those that defraud them.

    Luk 16:9 And I say to you, Make friends by the mammon of unrighteousness for yourselves, so that when you fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.

    Mammon - A Syriac word meaning riches. It is used, also, as an idol the god of riches.

    So it is clear what message Jesus was portraying here, Perhaps you need to stop leaning on your own understanding to interpretate the scriptures.

    For the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

    Do you understand what that means? . Who are the children of the world?

    Now the fraudulent steward knew about his bad ways, and he had his mind made up about what he was going to do -------> continue in his bad ways.

    Now the moral lesson here is for pharisees/ christians to

    1. serve God whole heartedly and desist from that which is evil or

    2. go after the ways of the world and not pretend to serve both God and riches/unrighteousness ---> this was exactly what the pharisees were doing---- > Hipocrates.

    Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

    I am thinking that you are either ignorant or refusing to acknowlegde the lesson behind the story Jesus told in Luke 16.

    You did not answer the question Bio.

    Again most of Jesus's preaching about hell/judgement was not meant for the pharisees. The pharisees did not even understand how the judgment/ ressurection was going to be.

    Just read Revelation 14 and tell me what your take is on that okay.

  • bioflex
    bioflex

    @designs: Jesus accuses the Pharisees of being formalists and overtly pious and yet to be a Messiah he had to be those exact things- an Orthodox Jew observing all Laws and Rituals.

    Are you serious about this arguement?. Perhaps you might want look up the meaning of HYPOCRACY . The pharisees lived contrary to what they preached and for that reason Jesus did condemn them.

    How does that make him a hypocrate? Did he also not live by his teachings?

  • designs
    designs

    bio- 'The pharisees did not even understand how the judgement/resurrection was going to be'. See this is why I keep insisting you-all need to go and either speak with a Rabbi or take some courses in Judaism.

    The Pharisees had a fully developed concept of the afterlife at the time of Jesus. Most of what Jesus taught on this matter had been taught in the Rabbinic schools for centuries prior to Jesus being around!

  • bioflex
    bioflex

    @Designs: Now the question is WHO taught them WHAT. Look through the Old Testament and tell me if the concept of judgement and resurection was thourougly established. The Iserealites knew about the judgment but did they know how it was going to be? They surely knew about the resurection but did they understand how they were going to live after the resurection?.

    They were only fully established when Jesus came. And moreso Revelations talks into it deeply.

    The fact that the pharisees had developed ideas about judgment/resurection did not mean they had it right. And the Rabbi's could have taught them without fully understanding them either. Talking about misinformed teachers.

    Most of the pharisees's teaching were established from Moses and the prophets of old, but they never taught into detail about the judgement/resurection. That is why Jesus mostly clarified it because he knows------ Jesus = Word incarnate right?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hope you are enjoying your coffee and computer time at the cafe' Bioflex....or did your server manage to get up and running again?

  • designs
    designs

    bio- Take a Rabbi to lunch (kosher)

    You have to divide the OT into the Torah and then the Prophets etc. that's kind of how it works. The Torah is silent on the Afterlife and so Orthodox groups like the Sadducees and even some modern Orthodox did not believe in an Afterlife although they can articulate all of the different ideas about what different Jewish sects believe on the subject. The Pharisees had a pretty developed concept of being with God then coming back to the earth and to live in Paradise called Gan Eden. Jerusalem is to be the center from which all Blessings flow. The Wicked would be punished but that was determined to be temporary as God wanted all of his children to be united with him eventually.

    Rabbi Maimonides, 1138-1204 CE, wrote extensively about what to expect and what not to get to excited about in the Afterlife.

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