Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex 84 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  designs

  Is this guy Stephen or Perry come back to haunt us

  "Note to Self- do not put soap on dead people they're to hard to hold onto" God "Never mind, unless you are spiritual you'll never understand".
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  bioflex

  @Vanderhoven7 : i am talking about the whole of Isaiah 14, specifically 11 downwards. unless perhaps you want to tell me lucifer is also bound to die some day.

  You do realise that death only applies to mortals right?. The bible says in romans 6: 23 - the wages of sin is death, now if death applied to spirit beings too shoudnt lucifer be dead by now? and again

  Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
  Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

  why would God imprison the angels that sinned some thousand of years ago, just to kill them on the day of judgment?

  Now you might want to study the scriptures about how the OT and the plot of God. How the devil wanted to corrupt the whole of mankind after he decieved them into eating of God's forbidden fruit.

  Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
  Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

  The devil was keen on destroying the lineage of man in order to nulify the God's judgement on him, that is why he caused his angels to come and mix with the seed of man.

  Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
  Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

  Noah was quite the only man who did not have any relation what so ever with the fallen angels, his GENES were not corrupted or mix with the angels, and his family too. That is why God used him to twath the devils plan.
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  Liberty

  Bioflex, really I am curious, you don't see any problems with God punishing people based upon His convoluted morality/salvation "plan"? It really makes sense to you that God remains hidden and tricky waiting to punish people in a fiery Hell for all eternity just because they couldn't figure out His incomprehensible puzzles?

  Why are we offered a "choice" at all? If I know I will punish gullible children by torturing them with searing heat if they "choose" to eat candy instead of vegetables wouldn't it be kinder and more intelligent to just NOT make the candy available in the first place and avoid all the pain and aggrevation?

  In our own lives do we put deadly poison into food that is irresistable to our kids and then leave it laying around the house while alowing a charismatic trickster to convice our children that it is tasty, will make them smart, and is good for them? Would we do this just to prove whether our children will obey our commands and heed our warnings about such poisons?

  There can be NO choice if you are punished horribly for making the "wrong" choice. You really don't see that?

  Even if I accept that we should be subject to making a NON-choice choice then, at least, make the "right" choice very clear. If it is so very important to God that we be saved then offer us all a clear indisputable path to save us. If I have absolutely no doubt that I will be tortured horribly for eating candy then you can bet your ass that I will never eat candy no matter how good it tastes.Show me the torture chamber, don't make it invisible. Show me my reward and make the punisher and rewarder clear and visible and the rules clear and simple. Even an animal knows how to avoid pain if you make it simple enough.

  The problem is that it is not clear. There are thousands of religions which claim to offer us salvation and all are based upon what some guy says an invisible unheard being told them in a vision to write down in a magic book of stories that don't make any sense and are frequently contradictory. From among all these religions and Holy books how can a stupid simple human know which is true? Most especially if God allows a cleaver trickster to make it even more confusing (the Devil). This really makes sense to you?
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  Vanderhoven7

  Bioflex,

  I hate to complain, but you are all over the map. Let's try to deal with one passage at a time, shall we?

  We are evaluating the biblical case for the traditional doctrine of "hell" defined as eternal torment. I asked how the Pharisees of Jesus day might have developed a very traditional view from the Old Testament alone. You came up with Isaiah 14 which does not establish eternal torment or even temporary torment of human beings after death.

  <<I am talking about the whole of Isaiah 14, specifically 11 downwards. unless perhaps you want to tell me lucifer is also bound to die some day.>>

  Yes, l want to tell you exactly that but we can look for clarity on Lucifer/Satan's fate especially as we hit Revelation 20. But for now, to you, what about the whole of Isaiah 14, or specifically verses 11 downward, should have convinced the Pharisees of eternal torment as the punishment for human sin?
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  bioflex

  @Cofty : now consider this scenario, when you look up the sky at daytime what do you see? the sun right? and what else is there? now look at the same sky at night and you can clearly see the stars. The fact that you cant see spirits does not mean they dont exist, you can only see them through the right spectrum.

  @Liberty : i dont think comparing vanilla candy and vegetables suits your point that much. Vanilla and vegetables can only do you good. The laws God gave us are clearly about our own well being. Would you say a murder should be accepted as a choice with no consequencies? .

  And the fact that you can choose alone means you have a choice, dont forget that there are consequencies for whatever deed yo do, not just evil deeds. Condiser someone who smokes ending up with a cancer that kills him, and another who does not smoke living his life to the fullest. would you say the smoker was treated unjustly?

  Again consider animals, how simple and contrained their character is, they only eat a certain food, sound a certain way, and are quite much more limited and so they dont have much of a responsibility as we have, clearly they dont have a choice right.

  @Vanderhoven7: i know, but the reason why i brought that up was because you dont seem to understand the ideology behind the OT and all that took place. You are trying to convince yourself that since a fiery hell was not stressed in the OT means it does not exist. Now when we come to the new testament there is simply no denying it. Even Jesus himself spoke of it, perhaps we should look into the NT.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Bioflex,

  <<i know, but the reason why i brought that up was because you dont seem to understand the ideology behind the OT and all that took place. You are trying to convince yourself that since a fiery hell was not stressed in the OT means it does not exist.>>

  Not only is it not stressed, it is simply not there...in any of the 39 books. To suggest that it is is to add to the Bible.

  << Now when we come to the new testament there is simply no denying it. Even Jesus himself spoke of it, perhaps we should look into the NT.>>

  It's truly facinating that although there is no such thing as eternal torment as the punishment of human sin in either the hell (Sheol) or the eschatology of the Old Testament, yet the Pharisees believed it. So before we jump into the NT (passage by passage) I'd like to ask you where you think the Pharisees might have got hold of their traditional views on hell and the afterlife?
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  bioflex

  @Vanderhoven7 : To begin with the Israelites believed in the judjement of men and punishment of the wicked. They knew God was going to judge men on a specific time He had chosen to do so. Again they knew that death was not an end to life in general. They knew there was accountability at the end of mortal life. Death brought an end to our mortal life. But our spirits never died. That is why Saul was able to summon the spirit of Samuel even when he had died. That would also explain why Jesus, when he was transfigured on the mount before his death had Moses and Elijah come and talk to him.

  We could consider the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man, this was NOT a parable or any of the lessons He taught. It likely pertained to an occurance which Jesus knew about.

  Again Jesus warns about a fiery hell in Mark 9 : 43 - it talks about a fire that can never be quenched. Not forgetting His words in Matthew 25: 41 - ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

  We know the devil is not mortal but spirit, likewise his punishment would also pertain to the spiritual sense, and if anyone is condemned with the devil then it means they are going to share punishment. Dont forget that is is rebellion/sin that causes lucifer this fate, and thats exactly what he are doing, isint it obvious that all sinners would share in his fate?

  There seems to be exceptions though, there are people who knew not God/Jesus, and such ones would be given a chance to learn the truth and decide on whose side they are going to be.

  But to dismiss a fiery hell altogether is just something else, seeing that the most part of the NT, revelation stresses on it clearly.

  and b4 i go, most christians and probably all JWs have this notion that almost everything in the bible is symbolic and all that. Its very wrong, God does not hide the truth from us, He tells us plainly what He would do, and anytime the bible talks about symbolism and parables it does very well to explain itself.
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  Vanderhoven7

  Bioflex,

  Re: Where did the Pharisees derive their belief in eternal torment?

  To begin with the Israelites believed in the judjement of men and punishment of the wicked. They knew God was going to judge men on a specific time He had chosen to do so. Again they knew that death was not an end to life in general. They knew there was accountability at the end of mortal life. Death brought an end to our mortal life. But our spirits never died. That is why Saul was able to summon the spirit of Samuel even when he had died.

  Sorry, but believing in judgment and punishment of the wicked, personal accountability and that the spirits of the dead can be summoned to consciousness does not equate with eternal torment as the punishment of human sin. So again, where did they get this idea?
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  sir82

  a fiery fire

  Yeah cause those watery fires aren't nearly as scary.

  That is why God used him to twath the devils plan.

  Behoove thee Satan! I shalt twath thee with a watery fire!
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  bioflex

  @Vanderhoven7 :Sorry, but believing in judgment and punishment of the wicked, personal accountability and that the spirits of the dead can be summoned to consciousness does not equate with eternal torment as the punishment of human sin

  you are kidding me right? In what form do you think the dead are going to be judged? in human or spirit form? and what do you think the punishment would be?

  Re: Where did the Pharisees derive their belief in eternal torment?

  show me where the pharasees spoke of a fiery hell or eternal torment in the bible? Wasnt is Jesus's own saying.