@Sir82: i suppose all you care about are my grammatical error's right?
Heaven and Hell : Life after death
by bioflex 84 Replies latest watchtower bible
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bioflex
@Vanderhoven7: The pharisees are not said to have believed in eternal torment. If we look at some of the things Jesus said about them. Like "You would recieve greater damnation" - talking about pharisees
and in Matthew 23: 15 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
would it makes sense if hell there was replaced with grave?
i took this from the NWT, since you seem to like that translation
“Woe to YOU , scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.
again if Gehena was just the grave, would that passage have made sense? cos every human being dies no matter if he was righteous, a pharisee or even an unsaved person.
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ProdigalSon
How can a dead body experience the pain of fire? That in itself should tell us that it's a metaphor, and it obviously takes place during a state of consciousness.
Forget the Bible. Read the Gnostic Gospels.
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Vanderhoven7
Bioflex:
<<The pharisees are not said to have believed in eternal torment.>>
"TEACHINGS OF THE PHARISEES
Concerning immortality, the Pharisees taught "that every soul is imperishable, but that only those of the righteous pass into another body, while those of the wicked are punished with eternal torment" (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, II, 8, 14). "They hold the belief that an immortal strength belongs to souls and that there are beneath the earth punishments and rewards for those who in life devoted themselves to virtue or vileness, and that eternal imprisonment is appointed for the latter, but the possibility of returning to life for the former" (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII, 1,3)."Josephus was himself a Pharisee in the first century...so I think he would know.
<<If we look at some of the things Jesus said about them. Like "You would recieve greater damnation" - talking about pharisees>>
The concept of "damnation" is spurious to scripture. Check any modern (and unbiased) translation and you will find the Greek κρι´μα translated as "judgment" or "condemnation", never "damnation.
<<in Matthew 23: 15 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. would it makes sense if hell there was replaced with grave?
Jesus employs 2 words often translated as "hell" in the New Testament. Hades (11 times), which is comparable to "Sheol" or "grave" in the OT and "Gehenna" (12 times) which refers to the final punishment (or total destruction). Jesus employs the latter in Matthew 23:15. Neither word refers to or is a substitute for eternal torment in scripture.
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tec
Bio, why do you think that the spirit cannot be destroyed?
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell."
Destruction implies an end to something, yes?
Peace,
Tammy
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bioflex
@Vanderhoven7: before i go any further i would like you to explain your understanding of the punishment?
i would also like you to explain the event about Lazarus and the rich man Jesus spoke of.
Revelation 14:9-11, Mark 9 : 46,
Revelation 20: 10 - 15 -> it talks about the lake of fire where satan is cast, and his torment would be for ever, also it talks about other people being cast into that same lake of fire where the devil is.
@ProdigalSon: except that it is not the dead body which is judged. Its the spirit.
@Tec: last i checked souls died too no? destruction sure implies an end to something but what about damnation, condemnation (a better translation VanderHoven would prefer) ? something can be condemned without being destroyed right?
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Vanderhoven7
Hi Bio,
<<something can be condemned without being destroyed right?>>
Yes, and someone can be condemned without being tortured eternally.
<<i would like you to explain the event about Lazarus and the rich man Jesus spoke of. Revelation 14:9-11, Mark 9 : 46, Revelation 20: 10 - 15 -> it talks about the lake of fire where satan is cast, and his torment would be for ever, also it talks about other people being cast into that same lake of fire where the devil is.>>
That's a tall order Bio. Make me work why don't you!
OK, how about starting with Luke 16? The interpretation of both stories in Luke 16 is dependent on literary form. If Luke 16: 19-31 represents "historical narration" which I believe you assume, then what can we determine without adding any ideas to the text?
Let me suggest what this account does not teach:
Eternal torment - the word eternal is not mentioned
Ongoing Torment till the resurrection - the duration of torment is not mentioned.
Temporary torment at death for all rich men - one rich man is tormented and expresses concern that his 5 brothers might end up in torment too....but what does he know?
Temporary torment at death for the rich man since he did not give 10% of his income to charity - we have no idea how much the rich man gave.
Temporary torment at death for the rich man because he did not accept Christ - nothing is mentioned about the rich man's faith.
Temporary torment at death for the rich man because he was evil - nothing is mentioned about the rich man except that he ate well and wore fine purple clothing and was concerned about others.
Assuming the literary form is "historical narration", here is what we can conclude without adding supposition to the text:
- The rich man was in torment because he had it good in this life.
- Lazarus ended up in Abraham's bosom because he experienced bad things in life.
Perhaps you know of other things we all can conclude without adding ideas to the text.
Now my question for you Bio, is this:
Why do you think Jesus preached (Hades) Hell-fire to the Hell Fire preachers of His day? Was He trying to help them get their message across?
Vander
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Dogpatch
To Vanderhoven7
Greetings my friend.
If you are an archeologist or historical linguist, circular arguments about "what the Bible says about the Bible" (as you know) are absolutely useless. Go listen to a Mormon try to verify facts in the Book of Mormon with the Book of Mormon. Idiots.
The "Lake of Fire," Gehennom, Tartarus, and the "Jehovah and the angels" bandwagon with their ringside seats around the sinners on the grill with eternal popcorn is a bit tacky nowadays, don't you think? It seems when you leave Jesus out of the immediate picture, the old gods go back to their habits of torture and dismemberment.
It is so minus 4th century. The Pharisees ate it up from the Greeks. Jesus believed it from the teachers (Pharisees). (Reread the Rich Man and Lazarus from the standpoint of a child who was raised to actually BELIEVE that horror - and JESUS uses it to SCARE the Pharisees! Don't you see how much sense that makes if you believed like they did, which is in recorded history, rather than trying to change the entire scenario in your mind????)
Obviously you are not good at magic tricks if you haven't by now. Neither am I.
Okay I'm going off. The hounds of hell are after me.
Christians should believe in hell. If they believe in Inerrancy. In fact, they should believe in a LOT of scary things. I guess the Republicans have proved that? (Eggs on my face). Hey, I voted for Bush the first time. Now is that scary?
Christians have no reason to fear anything. So why do they?
The OT has very little about the place called "Sheol." The Rabbis were not so afraid of it as modern Christians are of the devil (an idiotic conundrum that always baffled me - I wasn't afraid of the devil BEFORE I became a Christian. Why would I be afterwards???) (Don't get me started on Christians doing exorcisms on Christians and getting slain in the Spirit!!)
But one thing is for sure, in Sheol there was a soul that was conscious. The whole point of the modern Jews being buried on the Mount of Olives is so that their bodies would "roll down" and meet the soul, wherein they would be perfect, and in Paradise. Paradise was BOTH heaven and earth, but not too ethereal as yet. You will be with me in Paradise.
The "hell" and Gehenna and Lake of Fire and Tartarus of the New Testament are FAR MORE GHASTLY of punishments than what the OT has. Even the Ultra-Orthodox Jews wouldn't touch that one seriously.
So, what the hell?
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Dogpatch
Sorry folks, forgot ma references:
http://www.randallwatters.org/hellcomp.htm
Dogz in Hell today.
call me.
beat me.
Do SOMETHING!!!
Too may zombie movies. I've got to shoot my TV .
MAA???
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tec
@Tec: last i checked souls died too no? destruction sure implies an end to something but what about damnation, condemnation (a better translation VanderHoven would prefer) ? something can be condemned without being destroyed right?
When I say spirit, I believe I am referring to what you say 'soul' as being. In either case, something can be condemned without being destroyed. But it must be condemned TO something. You can't just say to someone, you are condemned. That means nothing;its just a word. Condemned to what?
Destruction.
Peace,
Tammy
