Heaven and Hell : Life after death (page 2)

james_woods

bioflex, this forum is rather rocky ground for clumsy evangalism -

Just Sayin -

Terry

The word LIFE is the exact opposite of DEATH.

When you argue that DEATH is merely another kind of LIFE you destroy the distinction of opposites and undermine "meaning."

" what if God is real, and what if all that which was being said about God was true"

What if is hardly a basis for any rational choice that requires intelligence, facts, careful consideration and absolute belief.

"What if" is the the preliminary stage of hypothesis only.

It is to be followed by an enumeration of all the actual facts.

When there are no actual facts (only assertions and hearsay) the second stage cannot be reached.

What you assume into your foundational argument always reappears in your conclusion.

Otherwise, you are stringing beads and cherry picking what comes after what.

bioflex

@Vanderhoven7 :

Isaiah 14: ---- > you might want to read the whole chapter.

Isaiah 66: ----> and this

i would bring up others later, i could have brought up other ones too but i would have to support them from the NT.

and i would like to say this : in Matt is talks about a fiery fire being prepared for the devil and his angels, and it is in revelation too.

you do realize that it because of rebellion/ sin that is why the devil is fated to hell fire, so what makes you think it is undeserving to humans? unless perhaps you want to tell me there is no fiery hell for the devil and his angels too which would be unbiblical.

Liberty

If we are punished for making the "wrong" choice then it is not a choice. If I am offered chocolate or vanilla ice cream and am branded with hot irons for chosing chocolate then it is NOT a choice. Why even offer the choice at all? Just give me vanilla and skip the searing irons on my flesh.

I have been searching for truth all my life and evidence measured against extreme sketicism is the only way I know to find any symbolence of truth, since otherwise, any old thing could be true, which would make truth seeking meaningless. If truth seeking is not spiritual then you are correct that I do not understand what it means to be spiritual.

If i cannot see the logic in God's plan (or men's interpretation of God's plan) then I remain ignorant of it. I cannot force myself to believe in things I just don't believe in. If I like chocolate better than vanilla I can't force myself to think otherwise. If I must face extreme pain I will gladly eat the vanilla but it doesn't change my feelings for chocolate. I don't understand free choice either in a Christian context. I am as ignorant as they come.

bioflex

@Terry: i dont remember saying death is another kind of life, i am saying there is another form of life AFTER death, but these two are totally different in regards to how it is lived. Its like a total different world, we cant know what is going on there likewise those who are dead cant know what is going on here on earth.

Now my saying "what if" is not about me rationalizing, i am only concerned about how people dismiss such religious talks based on physical hypothesis. U can't discern spiritual things with the physical mind.

cofty

U can't discern spiritual things with the physical mind.

Please define positively what you mean by spirit or spiritual.

bioflex

@Libety : If there is something cartain about God, then its that He is PRINCIPLED. Just look at our world, does any natural thing seem out of place? and it we were made in the image of God then we should surely be able to undertand and acknoledge such principles. Can you imagine our existence without rules?, if then the devil would not have been considered rebellious for wanting to partake in God's glorying.

Look at animals, would you prefer a streamlined character as they have rather than living freely just because you have to obey principles that gorvern your creation?

Without principles there would be no rules, without rules there would be no guilt/sin and without guilt/sin there would be no punishment. Which means we would have lived like animals, able to inflict harm and death upon ourselves without having to be questioned. Would you have prefered that?

bioflex

@Cofty : am i to define it from a scientific point of view or what? cos u know thats impossible.

as far as my religion is concerned man = (body + soul + spirit) , and spirit is defined two ways, first it could be considered wind, breath--> which is the breath of God. and is also our other self , it is the reason we can see things not visible in the physical world . Remeber that God is a spirit, and He made us in His own image, that is why we retain a spiritual aspect which fascilitates our communication with Him, but not just Him, humans can see other spirit creatures like angels and demons too because of the spirit we posses.

cofty

So its "like" wind or breath, except it isn't becasue that's just a metaphor.

Its our "other self" which tells us nothing about it at all.

Its "not visible in the physical world" - notice the word "NOT". I asked you to define spirit positively.

"God is a spirit" which tells us nothing except to repeat the assertion that some stuff called spirit exists.

You still have all your work to do. What IS "spirit"? Can you say anything positive about it at all?

Vanderhoven7

Bioflex....you wouldn't be Godrulz resurrected, would you?

You listed Isaiah 14. I assume you would want special emphasis placed on verses 4 - 11

Isa 14:4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Isa 14:5 Jehovah hath broken the staff of the wicked, the sceptre of the rulers;
Isa 14:6 that smote the peoples in wrath with a continual stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained.
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir-trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid low, no hewer is come up against us.
Isa 14:9 Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall answer and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee.

First: This says nothing about eternal torment. Nor is there mention of torment at all, unless loss of power (weakness) is interpreted as a synonym for torment

Second: This passage is defined as parabolic (4)

Third: This passage is filled with personification, trees speaking; Sheol (the Grave) attributed emotions; waking the dead to mock the king of Babylon.

Fourth: dead kings rise from their underground thrones to make light of their former ruler now covered with worms

This entire pericope is a powerful parody of personification

From: Eternal Torment: Image and Reality

Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. 1 Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits.i.e. ruling

Heaven and Hell : Life after death

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