Heaven and Hell : Life after death

by bioflex 84 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Stephen,

  The Bible is a very big book. If eternal torment was the punishment for human sin, it should be clearly stated ...somewhere. We shouldn't have to piece bits of scripture that are not clear and paste them together to get a somewhat coherent picture of the hell we might believe is there.

  Let me summarize what I have found by going through the entire Bible looking for eternal torment.

  Q UESTION ADDRESSED: Do we find eternal torment 'inside' the "hell" of scripture?

  I PROBED FOR ETERNAL TORMENT BY SIFTING THROUGH THE DUST AND ASHES OF:

  a. Sheol (Old Testament)

  - But I didn't find any hard evidence for conscious

  torment in any of the 65 Sheol passages.

  b. Hades (New Testament)

  - I examined all 11 "Hades" passages, 10 of which gave

  no support for the idea of torment of any duration.

  Although I found one dramatic passage of scripture

  that spoke very clearly of extreme pain and anguish,

  no clarification was made of the duration of that

  pain. In addition there was powerful evidence within

  the text itself that suggested the entire account did

  not represent historical narration.

  c. Gehenna (New Testament)

  - I looked at all 12 passages that used the term

  Gehenna. Although I didn't find any synonyms for

  pain or torment in any of the passages, I did find

  some rather perplexing imagery including;

  Everlasting Fire, Gehenna Fire, Unquenchable Fire

  and Undying Worms. However, all of these images,

  if interpreted in the light of other scriptural passages,

  can be readily explained without reference to ongoing

  suffering of any kind.

  I THEN SIFTED FOR ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE ESCHATOLOGY OF:

  d. The Old Testament

  e. The Gospels

  f. Acts and the Epistles

  g. Revelation

  QUESTION ADDRESSED: Do we find everlasting conscious punishment outside

  the "hell" of scripture?

  I PROBED FOR ETERNAL TORMENT BY SIFTING THROUGH THE FIRE AND FLAME OF:

  d. Old Testament Eschatology

  The predominant punishment imagery of the Old Testament

  is unquestionably that of destruction. Endless torment of

  immortal souls is simply not found in the Hebrew scriptures.

  e. The Gospels

  I found considerable "weeping and gnashing" imagery

  in the exclusion parables of the gospel, which would

  be expected of the condemned as they are faced with

  rejection at Christ's coming. However, the duration

  of that weeping and gnashing is consistently absent.

  Matthew 25, the parable of the sheep and the goats,

  speaks of eternal punishment. However this language,

  by itself, does not designate the nature of

  that punishment. In order to prove eternal torment

  from this passage it would first be necessary to smuggle

  the word "conscious" into the text.

  f. Acts and the Epistles

  Destruction, rather than torment imagery, is rampant

  in the Epistles. Certainly, as would be expected,

  God's wrath will not spare the wicked vexation and

  distress on the day of judgment, but again, endless

  duration of such distress is simply not found.

  g. Revelation

  There is one explicit reference to eternal torment in

  Revelation 20:10 which is applied to the unholy trinity

  of devil, beast and false prophet. However, the literal

  nature of this torment becomes suspect as we consider

  the verse itself, the surrounding scriptures, as well

  as similar judgment imagery in the Old Testament.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Bioflex,

  Re: Luke 16 I asked:

  Why did Jesus preach hell-fire to the hell-fire preachers of His day?

  a. Was it to confirm their beliefs?

  b. Was it to scare the scarers?

  or

  c. Was it to turn the tables on the Pharisees in the afterlife and undermine their authority and doctrine which they employed to justify themselves before men?

  If you don't believe it is c. please answer this question:

  How did the Pharisees make themselves look holy to men... while and actually because they did not lift a finger to help the poor?

  Answer that and you will know the literary frame of this account. And while you're at it, let me suggest that the account of "the commendable fraud artist" in the same chapter is told for the same purpose. Catch the Pharisees response and you should see what Jesus was doing.
• 

  zengalileo

  it's almost pointlesss to talk about. Impossible to prove one way or another. it's all just speculation and wishful thinking.Still I like to believe I'm going to heaven to be with my fther and brothers and sisters.
• 

  designs

  You mean some videos weren't proof positive.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Zeng

  According to the Bible Jesus claimed to come from heaven and He assured His disciples that their names were already written there. For the Christian, everything hinges on whether or not Jesus Christ is who the Bible says He is. If He is who the Bible says He is, then all power in heaven and earth belongs to Him and He can easily, by His Spirit, confirm our future, that we are the children of God. If not, then you are right, it is all pointless and speculative.
• 

  Chalam

  I have all the proof I need and more.

  For those seeking proof positive, they are missing the point. It is by faith, not by sight!

  Romans 8:22-25

  New International Version (NIV)

  22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

  1. Romans 3:28
     For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
     Romans 3:27-29 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Romans 4:1
     [ Abraham Justified by Faith ] What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?
     Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
  3. Romans 5:1
     [ Peace and Hope ] Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
     Romans 5:1-3 (in Context) Romans 5 (Whole Chapter)
  4. Romans 10:10
     For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
     Romans 10:9-11 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter)
  5. Galatians 2:16
     know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
     Galatians 2:15-17 (in Context) Galatians 2 (Whole Chapter)
  6. Galatians 3:11
     Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”
     Galatians 3:10-12 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
  7. Galatians 3:24
     So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
     Galatians 3:23-25 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)

  Nice post Van :)

  Paul puts it well here

  1 Corinthians 15:12-20

  New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

  The Resurrection of the Dead

  12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

  20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  Stephen unless you are willing to engage in a discussion on the anti-Semitism of the New Testament and its anti-Torah positions nothing really gets accomplished does it. Try engaging where the Gospels, Romans, Galatians misrepresent Judaism for starters. Rabbis for twothousand years have tried to 'Educate' the Church on its mis-reading and mis-understandings and sometimes Church leaders would actually listen on a few issues, most of the time their own agenda was the impediment.
• 

  Chalam

  How can the New Testament be anti-semetic?! It is written by Jews. "Immanuel", God with us is a Jew!

  Stop smoking drugs dude

  You better read these slowly

  1. Romans 1:16
     For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
     Romans 1:15-17 (in Context) Romans 1 (Whole Chapter)
  2. Romans 2:9
     There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
     Romans 2:8-10 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)
  3. Romans 2:10
     but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for theGentile.
     Romans 2:9-11 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)

  Or this

  Romans 11

  The Remnant of Israel

  1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

  7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

  “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
  eyes that could not see
  and ears that could not hear,
  to this very day.”

  9 And David says:

  “May their table become a snare and a trap,
  a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
  10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
  and their backs be bent forever.”

  Ingrafted Branches

  11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

  13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

  17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

  22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

  All Israel Will Be Saved

  25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

  “The deliverer will come from Zion;
  he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
  27 And this is my covenant with them
  when I take away their sins.”

  28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

  I have more respect for posters like cofty who clearly understand Christian doctrine and belief but have chosen not to believe rather that those who shoot off copious round of off topic blanks and one liners.

  Fire all the shots you like but those bullets don't actually exist.

  Stephen
• 

  designs

  You clearly do not know Judaism to make such an ignorant statement. Try reading Maimonides, or some contemporary works like The Book Of Jewish Knowledge by Ausubel, or Anti Semitism In The New Testament by Freudmann. Otherwise you are the one making the mistake you accuse the Watchtower of doing with its Trinity Brochurre- arguing against a false premise.
• 

  Chalam

  Designs, we have been here before.

  Titus 3:9-10

  New International Version (NIV)

  9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them.

  Enjoy your foolish controversies if you like, they have been touted around for thousands of years. Just like the WT folly, they are rebutted by the scriptures themselves.

  Galatians 3:28

  New International Version (NIV)

  28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

  Ephesians 2:11-22

  New International Version (NIV)

  Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ

  11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

  14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

  19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

  14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

  19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.