The Trinity

by The Quiet One 163 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • leavingwt
    Jesus is the son of God. God is THE Father.

    This does not contradict the Trinity.

  • The Quiet One
    The Quiet One

    "Unlike JWs and others I do believe Jesus is everything his Father is. The only differences are eternity and position. That is what Father/Son means. My son is 4" taller than me and could woop my ass, but I am still the father. He is everything I am." - I don't quite understand what you're saying here, does your son have the same personality as you? Or do you mean he's the 'image of' you, in other words very similar in looks/mannerisms/personality? If I assume you mean he is like you in most ways, you might like this... New Living Translation (©2007) "Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?" "The idea is that God, as God, or as a Father, had been manifested in the incarnation, the works, and the teachings of Christ, so that they who had seen and heard him might be said to have had a real view of God. When Jesus says, "hath seen the Father," this cannot refer to the essence or substance of God, for He is invisible, and in that respect no man has seen God at any time. All that is meant when it is said that God is seen, is that some manifestation of him has been made, or some such exhibition as that we may learn his character, his will, and his plans. In this case it cannot mean that he that had seen Jesus with the bodily eyes had in the same sense seen God; but he that had been a witness of his miracles and of his transfiguration - that had heard his doctrines and studied his character - had had full evidence of his divine mission, and of the will and purpose of the Father in sending him. The knowledge of the Son was itself, of course, the knowledge of the Father. There was such an intimate union in their nature and design that he who understood the one understood also the other."

  • jay88

    The cod-liver oil of threads "the trinity" to have to ingested it, but you have to keep around for good measure.


  • Bella15

    To dispel the confusion ... YHWH of the Old Testament is JESUS ... do a search about this, I think even JWs have something on this ... God manifested in the Father, Son, Holy Spirit ... NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD ... HE manifested himself to us

  • allelsefails

    Quiet - OK. I agree with that quote. No one has seen God. Jesus (a different and seperate personality - like any son) came to earth to provide this manifestatioon of god. His Love, Compassion, Power, will, and concern for our future.

    Sounds like you understood just fine what I meant. Nothing "mysterious" no my son is not the same personality. I believe Jesus "the Son" and Yaweh "the Father = God" are equal in power and abilities. They are seperate persons with different positions. You can be the same Nature without being the same "Person". Obviously God resurrected Jesus, God exalted Jesus to his position, but his position was one to be prayed to and worshipped. I think people miss the role of the "Father" in the relationship. As a father I want my son to learn and grow and have accomplishments of his own. I think The Father feels the same way.

  • reslight2

    bob1999 stated:

    Russell taught until sometime about 1906 that 1914 would be the END of armegeddon.

    Actually, it was in 1904 that Russell rejected Barbour's conclusion that Armageddon was to end in 1914. From 1904 on up to 1914, Russell was expecting that Armageddon was to begin, not end, in 1914. From October of 1914 until his death, Russell continued to believe that Armageddon had begun in 1914. Russell's view of Armageddon, however, was not at all the same as that held by the JWs. Brother Russell believed that Armageddon would "make ready and prepare mankind... for the blessing and uplifting of all families of the earth." -- What Pastor Russell Said, Question 555:4 (1910).

  • reslight2

    John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Isn't it written in your law, 'I said, you are gods [mighty ones}?'

    John 10:35 If he called them gods [mighty ones], to whom the word [Logos] of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken),

    John 10: 36 Do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?

    A "son" designates one who has been brought forth into existence by a "Father". This thought does indeed contradict the trinity doctrine, so that the trinitarian has to redefine both what it means to be generated (begotten) as well as what it means to be son, and this they do only in regard Jesus as being the Son of God. This is done through human imagination being added to and read into the scriptures.

    In the expression "Son of God", the word "God" designates only one person as that "God" -- the Might, and that is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) Jesus is not the Son of three persons, nor is he the son of himself (as many oneness believers seem to believe). Jesus is indeed the son of the One who is not himself, the One whom Jesus declared to be "the only true God" (the only true Might). (John 17:1,3) Aside from Yahweh, there is no might (Hebrew transliterated ELOHIM, a form of EL, meaning strength, might, power). (Isaiah 44:6; 45:5) Any might, any power, in the universe, depends on Yahweh as the source of that might, power, including the might and power that Yahweh has given to His son.

  • reslight2

    Jesus, in his original begettal, was indeed of the same "nature" as his Father, that is spirit, with the gloryof a spiritual body. This does not mean that there are two who have the glory or nature of being the Most High. Jesus will never have the nature of being the Most High. He will always the son of the Most High, but he will never be the Most High, nor will he ever be equal to the Most High, of whom he is the son. Jesus will never possess the glory or nature of being the Most High that only belongs to the Most High. -- Isaiah 42:8; 48:11; Luke 1:32; 1 Corinthians 15:27,28.

  • reslight2

    When one adds to the scriptures that Jesus is Yahweh, this does not dispell confusion; indeed it causes confusion. The Bible is very simply and straighforward without adding the confusion of a dogma that would make Jesus into being the God of Jesus. Indeed, not only does the idea that Jesus is Yahweh add confusion to the Bible, it would be in contradiction to the very Biblical basis of the redemption that comes through Jesus.

    Was it not Yahweh, the unipersonal God of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who raised Jesus up as a prophet like Moses, and who anointed Jesus, making Jesus to be both Christ (anointed one) and Lord? -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-22; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2.

    In Acts 2:36, is Jesus identified as the God of the Old Testament? Does "God" there not mean the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as shown in Acts 3:13-26? In Acts 3:13-26, is Jesus identified as the God of the Old Testament; does not "God" in those verse refer to one person who is not Jesus, but rather as the unipersonal God of the Old Testament who raised Jesus as the prophet like Moses? In Hebrews 1:1,2, does it not say that just as the God of the Old Testament spoke through prophets, so the God of the Old Testament speaks to us through His son? Jesus is not identified as the God of the Old Testament, but rather he is identified as the Son who is sent by the God of the Old Testament, who speaks for the God of the Old Testament, and who tells us of the unipersonal God of the Old Testament. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19 ; Matthew 22:32 ; 23:39 ; Mark 11:9 , 10 ; 12:26 ; Luke 13:35 ; 20:37 ; John 3:2 , 17 , 32-35 ; 4:34 ; 5:19 , 30 , 36 , 43 ; 6:57 ; 7:16 , 28 ; 8:26 , 28 , 38 ; 10:25 ; 12:49 , 50 ; 14:10 ; 15:15 ; 17:8 , 26 ; 20:17 ; Acts 2:22 , 34-36 ; 3:13-26 ; 5:30 ; Romans 15:6 ; 2 Corinthians 1:3 ; 8:6 ; 11:31 ; Colossians 1:3 , 15 ; 2:9-12 ; Hebrews 1:1-3 ; Revelation 1:1 .

    John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

    Who is "God" that no one has seen? Is it three persons? Or is not one person, who is the God and Father of Jesus? Should it not be obvious that in saying that Jesus came to declare "him" -- that is God -- that John was using the word "God", not of Jesus, of the One whom Jesus came to declare, that is, the God and Father of Jesus? Jesus came to declare the unipersonal God of the Old Testament; he did not come to declare himself as being the God of the Old Testament.

  • WontLeave

    I think I've given up on the trinity threads. Everybody who's had their understanding swayed one way or another by a sound argument or logical collection of Scriptural evidence, please raise your hand. It seems like everybody reads the Bible with an agenda. Atheists read it to find fault. Trinitarians read it to find trinity. Fundies read it to find Hell and excuses for hate. JWs read it to prove the Watchtower. Does it really matter what the Bible says, if you believe it to be the word of God? If the Bible tells you God is a 7-headed hydra, then why not believe it? What difference does it make to you? Why does everybody take so personally what the Bible needs to say, for them to be happy? Just read it and go with that! Why the need to force Scripture to fit preconceptions? I don't get it. You'd think people had a personal interest in it, as though they wrote the Bible and are offended when people don't get out of it what they intended.

    Personally, I have no dog in the race; I didn't write the Bible and I really don't care. I only take offence to the godrulz types who come along and order people to adopt their personal take on Scripture or they're going to suffer for it. He's a prime example of someone who takes it very personally, as if he gets a commission for each person he converts or an inch added to his penis for each argument he wins, or something. It's like the stereotypical washed-up salesman who's been on the road forever and hasn't had a sale in far too long: His livelihood and his job are in peril, but his desperation makes it harder to make a sale, so he's caught in a downward spiral. People so insecure with their beliefs they need everybody around them to agree are not convincing at all. If anything, their desperation and grasping at straws is obvious and a turn-off.

    A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. La la la la la la la. - Simon and Garfunkel (I picture fingers in ears during the la's)
    Once a man forms a theory, he sees evidence for it everywhere he looks. - Abraham Lincoln

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