The Quiet One: What's your take on praying to Jesus? (Back on topic.)
I'm not sure. Stephen clearly prayed to Jesus when he was being stoned to death, yet Jesus told his disciples to pray to the Father.. I don't pretend to be a scholar or to know much about anything, I just don't see the Trinity as gelling with the whole Bible, or even making much sense, so I'm just trying to weigh it all up by criticising things I don't agree with at the moment.
Old Man River. There; now rivers are personified, too. There's a reason trinitarians only ever seek to indicate binity (Father/Son): The Holy Spirit is an impossible sell. The only people who buy the "proof texts" for the personification of HS are people who already believe it. Those scriptures accomplish for trinitarians what JW "proof texts" against oral sex do - preach to the converted. They carry zero weight with any critics, as they say nothing of the sort they're invoked to establish.
- Lady Luck
- Mother Nature
- Father Time
- Grim Reaper
- Horsemen of the Apocalypse
- Wisdom (Prov 8)
Also, keep in mind, we're translating to a neuter language (English), where words don't have gender. Other languages, words can have gender, even though the object the word describes may not.
I just don't see the Trinity as gelling with the whole Bible, or even making much sense, so I'm just trying to weigh it all up by criticising things I don't agree with at the moment.
Once I realised that the definition of the Trinity that had been implanted in my head by the WT wasn't supported by the bulk of Christianity and went about finding out what it really was, and how they support it, I was able to get JWs to make fools of themselves by refusing to play their Bible ping pong and keeping them discussing single passages that they usually manage to avoid having to confront by using distraction and character assassination etc..
Knowing how to support it scripturally didn't stop me coming to the conclusion that the Bible was nothing more that man's thoughts about god, not God's thoughts about man.
Wontleave- Thank you! I feel like every time I try to ask for scriptural proof of the Holy Spirit being worshipped or even up there with Jesus/Jehovah I get diverted off by someone. From the beginning of the thread I've said that I'm not sure about whether Jesus should be worshipped or not, but I don't see where the 'third leg of the tripod', so to speak, fits into the God of the Bible, or even why it has to. I got so wrapped up in debating that I had forgotten the original purpose of the thread..
Is a name that is above every name above the name Almighty?
Almighty is not a name....it is a description. I don't think God actually has a name (who named him) What did Jesus say his fathers name was?...so no problem with Jesus having a name that is above ALL other names (since his father named him). This does not make him equal to his father.
Not only is there no proof for the Holy spirit to be worshiped...Jesus NEVER asked to be worshiped. He gave all honour to his father. He said he did nothing of his own accord. Only by his fathers will.
Honoring the son, honours the father...thats what Jesus wanted...to honour his father. NOT glory for himself.
Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Mark 1:11 And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
2 Peter 1:17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Bob- Just tried to read your link. Thanks anyway, but if the best way to understand the Bible's 'message from God' is an article that spends the first few paragraphs telling the reader that they won't be able to understand the concept that he can't explain fully anyway, I get the feeling that it's either nonsense or God must enjoy confusing people. The illustration he uses in relation to the trinity in the Bible, of not being able to explain the concept of man to a worm seems, to be polite, a little silly. After all, when was the last time that you or anyone you knew wrote a book explaining mankind, before giving it to a worm? It would be a waste of time! My brain packed up and went home when I read this part.. http://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god "The three Persons are the same in substance, i.e., in essence or in their essential nature, but distinct in subsistence which describes God’s mode or quality of existence in three Persons. By mode of existence we do not mean one God acting in three different ways, but one Divine Being existing in three distinct Persons within one Divine Substance or Essence. Again, this is not exactly three individuals as we think of three personal individuals, but one Divine Being who acts and thinks as one within a three-fold personality. This is incomprehensible to our finite and limited minds, but it is the teaching of the Scripture. “In the Being of God there are not three individuals, but only three personal self distinctions within the one Divine Essence.” 15"
Thanks quiet one. I am formed in God's image I am no worm. I believe God and Jesus explained themselves perfectly well. In a way a "child" can understand fully. Anything "over our heads" is obviously not vital for salvation.
For me it is simple. One scripture could be wrong (either the writer or the translation) however the overall relationship is ALWAYS Father and Son. Jesus is the son of God. God is THE Father. It was given to us to understand - One gives life to the other and is superior.
Unlike JWs and others I do believe Jesus is everything his Father is. The only differences are eternity and position. That is what Father/Son means. My son is 4" taller than me and could woop my ass, but I am still the father. He is everything I am. He has my power, my intelligence, my abilities, but not my age or position. I gave life to him, but he is only inferior in position not in quality or substance. That is where confusion comes in with Jesus. He is God in ability, but not position.
For either side of the debate I would love to hear a scripture that refutes this understanding..............