The thread loves you, too, dear EP (the greatest of love and peace to you!).
SA, on her own...
Why Some Cannot "See" that the Bible is NOT the Word of God
by AGuest 98 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
allelsefails
Hope it is OK to re-post this thought, but I would like your comments Shelby. Thanks.
I have long felt that Christians put an unreasonable demand on the Bible. They often say it is the Word of God, it is inspired, it is infallable. The scriptures themselves DO NOT MAKE THIS CLAIM. The opinion of one man writing a letter to his friend Timothy is the basis of this nonsense. I think Paul was a man trying to do his best, however he nowhere claims HIS writings are inspired scripture. Luke was writing a history that he had to gather from other sources hell - he told us he was NOT inspired. (Luke and Acts). The ONLY NT book that claims inspiration is Revelation..... a book written 60,70, 100 years after Christ died? In the very first Scripture list is was given the same place as the Apocalypse of Peter. (Muratorian fragment c. 100a.d.) In 100 they didn't HAVE a bible. "The Shepherd of Hermes" was a more accepted book than many they accept today.
For me the beleif goes - Creator provides spark of life and conciousness of man. Something the Genesis account represents VERY loosely. Beyond that - I think it is possible - even Likely that the law was from God or at least created under his influence. Thus the revealed god.
Was Jesus a heavenly personage transfered to human life or a man adopted to be THE son of God? Not sure - evidence is lacking. If Jesus spoke to me directly would I even know it? Would I go get medicated as a psychotic or would I think I was chosen? Not sure honestly.
Guess it is all part of the Journey but I would love some input Shelby.
-
AGuest
Hope it is OK to re-post this thought, but I would like your comments Shelby. Thanks.
It is absolutely OK, dear All (peace to you!). I knew I had at least one other to respond to and couldn’t “find” it. So, thank YOU!
I have long felt that Christians put an unreasonable demand on the Bible. They often say it is the Word of God, it is inspired, it is infallable. The scriptures themselves DO NOT MAKE THIS CLAIM.
Okayyy? To the contrary, actually. But try to tell such ones that…
The opinion of one man writing a letter to his friend Timothy is the basis of this nonsense. I think Paul was a man trying to do his best, however he nowhere claims HIS writings are inspired scripture.
You’re preaching to the choir, chile!
Luke was writing a history that he had to gather from other sources hell - he told us he was NOT inspired. (Luke and Acts). The ONLY NT book that claims inspiration is Revelation..... a book written 60,70, 100 years after Christ died?
Yep!!
In the very first Scripture list is was given the same place as the Apocalypse of Peter. (Muratorian fragment c. 100a.d.) In 100 they didn't HAVE a bible. "The Shepherd of Hermes" was a more accepted book than many they accept today.
Well, they didn’t have an “NT”. They did have the Septuagint (OT in Greek)… but Christ had problems with that compilation, so…
For me the beleif goes - Creator provides spark of life and conciousness of man. Something the Genesis account represents VERY loosely. Beyond that - I think it is possible - even Likely that the law was from God or at least created under his influence. Thus the revealed god.
I must ask your patience here… and allow me to get back to you. I perceive that you are actually asking a question here; however, responding to this would take a little more attention than I can muster, right now… and, unfortunately, it’s late and my brain is on its way “out”. But I WILL get back to it as soon as possible tomorrow, if that’s okay? And yes, I do have comments, perhaps even “answers” (as my Lord permits me to share).
Was Jesus a heavenly personage transferred to human life
Yes!
or a man adopted to be THE son of God?
A man, yes, in that he came through a woman of flesh (with its blood): Mary. However, a half-breed: a human being with (from his mother), but a spirit being (from his Father). Like Adham. But neither he nor Adham were adopted; they were BORN… as the only BEGOTTEN sons of God… by His wives: “Sarah” (Jerusalem Above, the spirit realm), His free wife; and “Hagar” (Earth, the physical realm), His slave wife.
Not sure - evidence is lacking.
I’m not so sure: what would you deem to be ‘evidence’?
If Jesus spoke to me directly would I even know it?
Not necessarily. Most don’t, initially…
Would I go get medicated as a psychotic or would I think I was chosen? Not sure honestly.
You would most probably consider the first, if not follow-up on it… and most probably dismiss, of not outright deny, the second. For a time, at least.
Guess it is all part of the Journey but I would love some input Shelby.
I hope this helps, dear one… and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-
allelsefails
Thanks for your input.
When I say "evidence" I mean reasonable proveable facts. I think Jesus could easily be an "adopted" human/ There are scriptures that indicate otherwise, but scriptures..... that have changed that disagree? I don't know.
I'm OK if you take everything I say as a question.
Look forward to more input tomorrow. Thanks.
-
AGuest
Thanks for your input.
You are quite welcome, dear ALL (peace to you!)
When I say "evidence" I mean reasonable proveable facts.
Proveable by... science... physical testing... etc., yes, I understand. I have to ask, though: is something truly NOT true... UNTIL it is proven in these ways? I mean, doesn't OUR limitations... which sometimes PRECLUDES us from proving something (in the way you suggest) only delay our knowledge, but NOT negate the TRUTH of the matter? For instance, was the world REALLY flat... until it was PROVEN round... by "reasonably proveable 'facts'"? Was the earth REALLY the center of the universe, did the universe REALLY revolve around the earth... until "reasonably proveable facts" showed otherwise?
I realize that some are going to roll their eyes and think, "Poor little misguided, uneducated girl! If you only knew how childish you sound!" I get that. The only way I can respond for ME is to say that hearing Christ speak, literally, IS evidence. I HEAR him. Do I wish others could hear, as well, so as to have it proven to THEM? Of COURSE, I do! Which is why I tell people that they can do it able, TOO (they can!)... and HOW. I mean, for ME, it's like saying, "Hey, you can see these little organisms, you really can! I mean, I can, so you MUST be able to do so, too... because I'm NO DIFFERENT than you, truly! What? No, I don't have a PHYSICAL 'tool/instrument' to help you see them, per se. I mean, no, there's no mechanical microscope or anything. But you CAN... and really, you don't even need that!" To which folks respond, more often than not, "Well, unless I have such an instrument/tool, I don't BELIEVE I can see these tiny things... and so these tiny things CAN'T be seen."
Now, if I could build a receiver that would help folks hear... I would do it. Of COURSE, I would. But (1) I wouldn't even know where to begin, or (2) that such a tool would even help/work! I only know what I hear... how... and from whom. Which is proven "evidence" to ME. If I were lying, though, I would CARE that others don't believe me. I would get offended and heated when they didn't... or when they called me "crazy" (which happens often here). I would take personal issue with opposing POV's/comments, even get angry. But what would be the POINT? It is what it is... and folks either believe me... or they don't. Which is on THEM, not me. What benefit is it to ANYONE if I get all hot and bothered because "no one believes me"? I can't say that I would believe me, EITHER... had it not occurred with ME. So, I get the dissention, truly.
I think Jesus could easily be an "adopted" human/ There are scriptures that indicate otherwise, but scriptures..... that have changed that disagree? I don't know.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, "adopted" human. Can you clarify, please? Thank you!
I'm OK if you take everything I say as a question.
Thank you, truly! I hope that you don't take ANYTHING that I state as yelling or "mean" or anything like that. I am passionate, yes, and so that sometimes comes out in my emphases (caps, italics, direct statements, etc.). But I mean absolutely NO offense or harm, truly.
Look forward to more input tomorrow. Thanks.
Well, I hope what I've shared thus far helps. Again, I need more clarification to respond to Christ being "adopted"...
For me the beleif goes - Creator provides spark of life and conciousness of man.
Yes, to some degree. He first provided the spark of life, His Son - the Light. That One was and is the original "source" of energy in the physical universe. Which universe REQUIRES such. THROUGH that Son, that energy source, He then created the environment to SUSTAIN life in a physical form: first the physical universe itself... as well as a "place" for "seed" (the earth). Then He put SOME of life... that energy... ON the earth... in physical vessels: plant first, then beast, then man. In that order. He then put the consciousness of man... into the vessel, the physical body... which was made of substances taken from the earth: salt, calcium, protein, water, etc. He then put a life force INTO that vessel... which gave it consciousness: not just life, but awareness, presence.
Something the Genesis account represents VERY loosely.
Yes, but there is One who knows... and can explain it. To those that go to him to DO so. Many say they do, but really... they go to the Bible. Which always leaves them "thirsting." Why? Because... the answers are not all THERE, if at all!
Beyond that - I think it is possible - even Likely that the law was from God or at least created under his influence.
It was...
Thus the revealed god.
No, dear one. The Law is not the revealed god, not at ALL. CHRIST is the revealed God. HE is the one we must look at/to to see God. And the explanation is quite easy, actually: the Law is the OPPOSITE of the reality. Look at the LAW... and you see the "negative" of the image; however, look at CHRIST and you see (1) the opposite of the LAW (which is LOVE, NOT judgment and condemnation); (2) the REALITY; which is (3) GOD. He is NOT God, but the IMAGE of God. It is like the Medusa fable: Persues couldn't look directly at Medusa... because he would be turned to stone if he did. He COULD, however, look at her IMAGE... in the shield. Christ... is the SHIELD in which the IMAGE of God is REFLECTED! Look THERE... and see Him.
Of course, some will say, "Well, why do we need to do that? Why can't we just look at God Himself?" That answer is also easy: because our FLESH... CANNOT WITHSTAND IT. We think we are so... capable. So, "strong". "Oh, let ME see Him; I'll survive it!" We cannot... so long as we exist in the flesh. Our FLESH cannot withstand it. Our spirit, perhaps, but our FLESH... no. Spirit beings don't have bodies that die, so they don't have this problem. We, however, are WEAKER than that. We have hearts that will stop beating. Lungs that will stop breathing. Brains that will shut down. It is TOO MUCH for the flesh (with its blood). Truly.
And so a provision was made: the Son came, first in the flesh, so that we would at least have a VIEW of God's glory... His GOODNESS. NOT His "flesh"! THEN... after he died, that Son poured out HOLY SPIRIT... so that we can TRANSCEND the flesh. Because that's the only way we can see... and still LIVE (in the flesh). That is how the Prophets saw: they were "transferred" into SPIRIT: IN SPIRED. IN SPRIT.
But most us cannot handle this. We want to "see" God... in nature, in children, in the sky... in a BOOK. In everything except the One who RELFECTS His image: Christ.
And so... we don't see Him. But whose FAULT is that? His? Or... ours?
I hope this helps, dear All. I don't know if I answered your "questions"... but it is the truth I was compelled to share.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
-
Awen
@ Entirely Possible
I still have family in Chester, SC. Actually most of my family lived there at one time or another. When doing my family's genealogy I found that my family resided in Chester, SC for over 200 years (even before the Revolutionary War). My mother's sister's last name is Sweatt, she lives on Hamilton Street. Her brother's last name is Watts. My grandfather's (who lived there in the 1950's and all his ancestors before him) last name is Dallas. Clan Dallas is originally from a small Barony in Scotland, near Inverness. It's fairly close to Lake (Loch) Ness. The town still exists to this day.
@Shelby. You have a PM dearest one.
Peace and Love,
Awen
-
AGuest
Got it and responded, dearest Awen (peace to you!)
SA
-
myelaine
dear AGuest...
I can also post my observations here if you prefer...I wasn't being deceitful...I was being honest and discreet.
luke 16:19-31...Jesus has Father Abraham telling believers in hell that they could have "stood" to hear/read Moses and the prophets more. the written word of God also implies that it is milk for babes and meat for men...1 peter 2:2, matthew 24:45. love michelle
-
OUTLAW
I can also post my observations here if you prefer...I wasn't being deceitful...I was being honest and discreet......Myelaine
Shelby has made it Very Clear to You,she will Not Debate you in PM`s..
Your above post Hardly Seems Honest..
You Need to Find Jesus..
......................
...OUTLAW -
AGuest
Wrong thread, Michelle. I have responded to your PM, here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/213762/1/Myelaine
Also, you were being deceitful... and still are... if to no one but yourself. I've asked you numerous times to NOT PM me but post whatever you have to say to ME on the board. You have continually disregarded that request... NOT because you're being honest OR discreet (ummmm... THAT boat sailed when you publicly stated that my Lord is a demon - what in the WORLD is the point of trying to be "discreet" after that??)... but because you THINK you are "saving" me from "embarassment" in front of others... because you are "right" and I am "wrong."
As far as the new verses you’ve thrown out, I am directed to respond as follows:
First, as to 1 Peter 2:2, it depends on what Bible "version" one reads, does it not, as to what the verse is saying? For example:
"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby" (KJV)
"like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation," (NASB)
"Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation" (NIV)
"Like newborn babies, you must crave pure spiritual milk so that you will grow into a full experience of salvation." (NLT)
"Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation--" (ESV)
"Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation" (RSV)
"as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation" (ASV)
Notice, only two of these versions (KJV and NASB) include the words "the word". Yes, I know there are others versions but for the sake of brevity I only tried to show that more do not. But let's look at the word... "word"… shall we, which, in the Greek rendering, is "logikos". In GREEK, that word primarily means:
1) pertaining to speech or speaking
2) pertaining to the reason or logic
a) spiritual, pertaining to the soul
b) agreeable to reason, following reason, reasonable, logical
NOWHERE in that definition, however, is are the words “pertaining to… the Bible… scripture”… or anything that is READ. What is even MORE interesting, however, is the ROOT Greek word from which “logikos” is derived: “logos”. And what is the definition of THAT word? Please… pay close attention to the words and phrases emphasized with bolding and italics:
1) of speech
a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
b) what someone has said
1) a word
2) the sayings of God
3) decree, mandate or order
4) of the moral precepts given by God
5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
c) discourse
1) the act of speaking, speech
2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
3) a kind or style of speaking
4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
d) doctrine, teaching
e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
1) reason would
f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, [Jesus] Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God…
[NOTE: I openly admit that I omitted the stuff regarding the “second person in the Godhead”… because that’s another topic entirely and beyond the scope of THIS thread.]
My POINT, however, is that NOWHERE in the description of Greek word “logos”… do you see the terms/words “Bible”… or even “scriptures”. Rather, it pertains to SPEECH and SPEAKING. Literally, not abstractly.
To make it MORE interesting, however, the GREEK word that WOULD refer to the “scriptures”… or, for some, the “Bible”… is “graphe.” And the definition(s) for THAT word are:
1) a writing, thing written
2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents
3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture
Do you SEE ?
So, now, let’s look at another Bible version, Young’s Literal Translation, which states:
"as new-born babes the word's pure milk desire ye, that in it ye may grow..."
Say, what? Desire the WORD’S pure milk? WHAT “milk”? The “food”… at the PROPER time, Michelle. Which means, if one IS A BABE… such one will RECEIVE… “milk.” (“I have much to TELL you… but YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO BEAR IT, YET.”) As one GROWS… into a “full-grown man” in Christ… one receives “meat”.
Which is what it MEANT by your second verse reference:
b. Matthew 24:45… where my Lord’s words indicate that each would receive their “food”… at the PROPER time. So, what’s “proper”? Well, a LOVING shepherd would NOT give grass/grain to a newborn sheep; it could not digest grass/grain. So, he would give IT milk. At the same time, however, he would not give MILK to a full-grown sheep… because it would STARVE. So, he gives IT grass/grain. Food… milk OR meat… at the PROPER time. And when is THAT? Whenever such time IS “proper”… including… when one is able to BEAR it.
Even SO… it’s the Shepherd who dispenses the FOOD… whether milk OR meat… from HIS hand, is it not?
But what truly IS the “pure… unadulterated ‘milk’” that Peter was speaking of? What is it we are supposed to LONG for? What IS “the Word’s pure milk”? Well, if it’s what YOU are suggesting it is, then Peter’s admonition goes dead against the admonition stated at Hebrews 5:11-14. To understand this, though, you need to start from verse 5:
“Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”
“During the days of [Jesus’] life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
“Concerning HIM (Christ), we have MUCH to SAY but it’s hard to explain because YOU have become DULL in YOUR HEARING. For though, by this time you owe it to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach YOU about the beginning thing one… God’s Word… and have become needing MILK again, and not solid food! Everyone who partakes of only of MILK is without EXPERIENCE of the Word and His righteousness because he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who by practice have their perception and understanding trained to distinguish what is good/right and bad/evil.”
Do you see how if what YOU intimate is “milk”… which Peter says we should form a longing for… what is stated HERE goes contrary to that… because it says that “milk” is NOT enough? And that one can actually go BACKWARD if the only partake of IT?
But Peter and the writer of the letter to the Hebrews are NOT talking about the same thing. The writer of Hebrews is talking about them only being able to “partake” of a few basis truths. For example, that Christ is the Son of God. That he came in the flesh. The he dispenses holy spirit. However, they couldn’t move PAST the basic stuff about that One. Thus, it was being RE-explained to them that:
1. Christ is the Son of God, His appointed High Priest, and a king and priest in the manner of Melchizedek…
2. NOT because he TOOK that role, but because it was given him BY God.
3. That he LEARNED obedience (not knew it from day one!)… BY the things he suffered (because he got THROUGH his sufferings by offering up prayer and supplication, NOT because he was perfect to start with!)
4. And so was MADE perfect (not BORN perfect!) as a RESULT.
There was MORE that the writer wanted to share, however, but was saying that he COULDN’T… because the Hebrews had become dull… IN THEIR HEARING. They no longer HEARD the Word SPEAK them! Why? Because… THEY WOULD NOT LISTEN… and so MOVE PAST THE “BEGINNING” THINGS. They would not let their PERCEPTION AND UNDERSTANDING… be TRAINED (by THAT One). Why? Because their ability to ONLY drink MILK… precluded them from becoming “MATURE”… because the could not EAT… from HIM… “SOLID” FOOD. PROPER “food”.
They felt that they had enough in “milk”… the basics, which were sufficient for them. But the writer knew that the TRUTH was they had become MALNOURISHED… because they did not keep PURSUING their “hope”. They did not keep LISTENING to… so as to HEAR… and thus, FOLLOW… the voice of the LAMB. Hence, as time passed, their HEARING… became DULL. As it does WHENEVER someone stops listening to another!
Peter, however, was talking about what we should LONG for: the PURE “milk”… holy spirit. God’s pure, clean, SPIRIT… by means of which our bodies are “prepared”… meaning our ears are “opened”… so that we HEAR His Son… so that that One CAN speak to… and teach us! In order for us to MATURE:
“As for YOU, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.” 1 John 2:27
Because that ANOINTING… is WITH holy spirit… the “oil of exultation”… which is the “spirit of the TRUTH” (HIS spirit, Christ – the Truth - that he received from the Father). The spirit that my Lord said would be SENT to those who were remained in union with him. It is NOT a “he”… it is an “it”… a SUBSTANCE: the blood, breath, and seed (semen)… of the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies… HIS LIFE… in all aspects that life is GENERATED. It is put INTO those who belong to Him… starting with His Son… then into ALL others…BY AND THROUGH THAT SON… the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH… who ALONE brings such ones TO the Father. There is NO other Way.
Unfortunately, though, you allowed YOUR hearing to become “dull” as well, at some point. So that, like the Hebrews, YOU now no longer hear the voice of that One, the Fine Shepherd, either. This occurred because only WANTED “milk.” As a result, that’s all you’ve received and so you have become like a starved sheep… emaciated in your “spirituality”… close to death, spiritually. Rather than turn BACK, however, and ask for “meat”… or even accept the “meat” that was offered you… you turned it down and now, your “condition” has “matured” YOU to the point of blaspheming… against that One, the Holy Spirit. Which you continue to do so… and with absolutely NO regard for those you are trying to mislead right down the very same path.
Again, may the Most Holy One of Israel have mercy… on YOUR soul… and spirit.
A slave of Christ, God’s ONLY Faithful and Discreet Slave, and the One from whom I receive MY “food”…
SA
