by AK - Jeff 328 Replies latest jw friends
Please go back and read the context - there was no "flood argument"
It's a strawman. There is no need to use the Bible, a hot topic with 2 billion people, to make a point for atheism. It's intellectually lazy because you should know that comments that refer to the Bible in any fashion will turn off minds when used to promote an atheistic value.
I guess I just consider preaching to the choir intellectually lazy as it doesn't promote your idea very well and facilitates boxed thinking.
-Sab
Jeff,
Sorry, when I read what you said I thought it was you saying it, not a summary of what Dawkins was stating.
That said, you seem to agree with that view:
But creationists miss the point that at some very basic levels it is ugly.
He could not be, if he is the author of the chaos and pain we see at the foundations of our world and universe. I present that pure evolution better explains such foundation than does creation.
Personally, I think that God was created to cover our fears. We do not wish to believe that survival is the key element of life - we prefer to believe that underlying all this must be LOVE. Yet the evidence does not support such conjecture. God was created to foward such opinion among the superstitious ancients who could not explain it otherwise. Just my opinion.
You too seem to have issues with how the world IS, or is the world "just fine" for you? are things the way they are and correctly so in your opinion?
You think that everything as it is, is the way it is suppose to be?
How many christians would admit that the natural world is pure carnage and that god made it that way?
The world is the way it is because it can't be any other way.
Why not, I thought god was omnipotent? It would be nothing at all for god to cause tectonic plates to slide smoothly over each other.
It's a strawman. There is no need to use the Bible, a hot topic with 2 billion people, to make a point for atheism.
Nonsense. How do any christians get the ideas they hold about the things we are talking about if not from the bible? It was an oblique reference to "Unweaving the Rainbow" by Dawkins, sorry if you didn't get it
Why not, I thought god was omnipotent? It would be nothing at all for god to cause tectonic plates to slide smoothly over each other.
There was a riveting episode of LOST that your comment reminds me of.
There is a character named John Locke. His dad was an evil man that never was in his life. One day John Locke's dad shows up in his life out of no where. John is excited to see his dad again and reconnect. Problem is that John's dad was scheming to steal his son's kidney and using John's emotions to facilitate the con job. His dad succeeded and stole his kidney, by convincing his son to willingly give it to him, and then walked off into the sunset with his new life.
But that's a different episode than the one that came to mind. John at one point in the show is put in a room with his dad and instructed to kill him. John can't do it after all the things his dad did to him as well as other horrible things he did to others. But he just didn't have the heart to kill him.
There was almost a physical wall in front of him that kept him from killing his father. It was his rule and he followed it to the end.
My point is, and I do have a point lol, is that why do think that God is not subject to his own rules?
-Sab
My point is, and I do have a point lol, is that why do think that God is not subject to his own rules?
Sorry I am struggling to get the question?
The universe is uncaring, how much evidence do we need - its is surely self-evident.
That is a normative statement. When you use terms like uncaring, you are making judgements on what constitutes caring, and what does not. You make a moral, or value judgement. On what foundation can you make that statement?
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
That's fine by me but lets not pretend its anything other than a 21st Century American, Johnny-come-lately, let's all feel good about ourselves, version of the gospel.
If that were the case, you would possibly have an argument. I recommend you investigate historical non-Protestant teachings on sin and justification.
How many christians would admit that the natural world is pure carnage and that god made it that way?
The world is still in a state of becoming. We have a role to play in its future. That is part of why we are here.
ARe you saying that the way the world IS is not how it OUGHT to be?
To see that two-thirds of the world is suffering and then say that is the way it OUGHT is an odd reaction for sure.
I'm saying when we see people suffering we should do all we can to help them. That is NOT happening on this planet. Too many people sitting around in their Lazy Boys watching American Idol not giving a rat's ass what is happening in the half of the world.
This is not directed at you or anyone on here. The fact is mass society is apathetic.
Nonsense. How do any christians get the ideas they hold about the things we are talking about if not from the bible?
When did our conversation become specifically about Christians? Atheism is not the rejection of Christ or his followers ideas it is a rejection of the whole concept of God.
My point is, if you want to get your atheistic points across, using the stories of the Bible as supporting evidence is counterintuitive. I actually don't care because I'm not a Christian, but I know many would. Just trying to help.
-Sab
Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involve, and you will find that you have excluded life itself.
