What say you Christians ???

by wobble 277 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • FlyingHighNow

    "22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

    All are "In Adam" but not all are "in Christ". Only beleivers.

    In Adam ALL, did you read that? ALL die. And in Christ ALL, did you read that ALL will be made alive.

    I'm not one who believes everything written in the Bible was set to pen by God's directive. But for you who think they were, 1 Corinthians 15 gives you a lot to think about. Why do you insist God cannot find a way to save all of his children? You can't enjoy living unless a lot of people aren't? It makes no sense that evil will be stronger than good in the end of it all.

  • bob1999

    "I'm not one who believes everything written in the Bible was set to pen by God's directive"

    So how do you decide what parts were and what parts weren't?

    And why pick 1 Corinthians 15 as one that is?


  • jair_irwin

    wobble you make an astute point about the fundamental nature of Christianity. The concept of "original sin" and the resulting need for redemption, or salvation, is at the core of Christian belief. When I think of a Christian's path to salvation I often think of the word "grace".

    I find this a fascinating contrast with another major world religion, Islam. Christians believe that they can never earn salvation - because of their sinful state, it is only the undeserved kindness, or grace, of God that can save them. Muslims believe that submission to god is the key to salvation. God is not portrayed as loving and forgiving as much as he is portrayed as all powerful, all worthy, and deserving of absolute submission. Muslims bear witness to the oneness of god, and the need to submit to him, while Christians stress the forgiveness, and grace, of god.


  • bob1999


    Legally, God cannot judge a human twice, for the same crime. Death is the penalty. Those who have died, have paid Adamic penalty.

    (Romans 6:7) . . .For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin."

    In Romans 6:7 the term "died" does not refer to physical death.

    If you think that it does, that only shows you have never read the whole chapter.

    1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, [a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

    8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    died to sin

    baptized into his death

    united with him in a death like his

    our old self was crucified with him

    Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

    This is the kind of "died" that verse 7 is speaking of, not physical death.


  • godrulz

    The same Bible also says that unregenerate men will join Satan and together they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. This everlasting duration phrase is also used of worshipping God day and night forever and ever. Annihilation and universalism are lies/heresies.

    Pika Chu: I imagine any logician would be able to deal with your non sequiturs, wrong premises, etc.

    jgnat: The Bible God is transcendent and immanent. Deism is a false philosophy that makes Him aloof. This is the beauty of the incarnation: God Himself, not a flunky angel, walked among us, suffered, died, rose again. This is why it is so serious to reject Jesus (it is a rejection of God Himself).

  • tec

    I wrote a post on here a couple hours ago, and I can't find it. Don't know what happened. Perhaps some other thread has my completely off-topic comments on it ;)

    What I said is that there is some controversy regarding the translation of "forever and ever", in that perhaps it is better translated as age of ages, or the end of an age... something like that. I don't know anything about the controversy surrounding this issue, but I do know that some translations are created based on our interpretation. Its definitely worth considering though.


  • bob1999

    "What I said is that there is some controversy regarding the translation of "forever and ever""

    revelation 4:9

    Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,

    Revelation 4:10

    ......the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever.

    Revelation 20:10

    And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    From the interlinear the same words are used in all three places.

    tous aiOnas tOn AiOnon

    the eons of the enos.

    I think it is clear that God lives for ever and ever. So that leaves only one conclusion about the torment.


  • godrulz

    It is actually a Greek idiom, not a wooden literalism. It is a strong phrase in the Greek that conveys endless duration, whether for the worship and existence of God or for the torment of God's enemies. WT rationalizations are based on Russell, not Scripture. Truth will always stand against the lie.

  • wobble

    How can I reject Jesus/God when I do not believe they/Him/whatever , exist ?

    It seems to me that the only people in danger of an adverse judgement are believers if they put a foot wrong.

    Us good ol' non-believers have nothing to worry about.

    As long as we do not lose our rationality, critical thinking skills and our B.S detector, and we then start to believe in fictional characters who actually turn out to be real, I don't think that is going to happen.

    Neither will happen, we non-believers losing our senses, or fictional characters, god/his son etc. turning out to be real.

  • FlyingHighNow

    Don't worry, Wobble. Just be your good self. If you have a child who is a very good person, who doesn't believe in you, aren't you just going to glad that he/she is a good person? And you're not going to stop loving that child just because he/she is doing bad things either. There are many more arguments for universalism in the very imperfect Bible. Some people just can't stand the idea that God isn't out to destroy a lot of his children. They cling to this idea erroneously . In the end they hurt many more people than they help. They repel many more people than they attract. I think of all the things humans do, that false idea of God they promote hurts him far worse than "rejection" by thinking people.

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