Thanks for information, Chickpea! I also like the phrasing of your pledge... it sounds like a balanced perspective.
How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance now?
by SweetBabyCheezits 101 Replies latest jw friends
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OnTheWayOut
I haven't finished listening to this, but it's similar and fits your discussion in that it's about raising free-thinking children:
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Quendi
I have no children, but I did teach in a high school where the Pledge was recited once a week. I explained to my principal that I would never take part in the ceremony as a matter of conscience. However, I required my students to be respectfully silent while the ceremony took place. Nobody had to stand, but they couldn't engage in other activity until the ceremony ended. To me, that was simply good manners and showing respect for others' beliefs. To my great surprise, many non-Witness kids also refused to participate in the ceremony and that tells me that JWs aren't the only ones who don't want to have anything to do with it.
I still feel this way, and all the more so since the Pledge was originally concocted by a company that was only interested in selling American flags. That has long since been forgotten. I am no longer a Witness, but I think some of their beliefs on neutrality are scriptural. I know others may believe otherwise, and I'm okay with that. The question I ask people is which flag would Jesus salute or pledge allegiance to? The silence that follows is all the answer I need as to whether I should take part in the ceremony or not.
As for standing when the colors are presented or the national anthem is sung, I have no problem with that because I think it is simply showing respect to the nation, its emblems, and its officers. But I will not sing any nation's anthem under any circumstances. Again, I can't imagine Jesus doing so and therefore I will not either. At least in the United States nobody can force such compliance. I am grateful for the Supreme Court decisions made in cases brought before it by Jehovah's Witnesses that have reaffirmed that refusal to participate is a fundamental human right that is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the American Constitution. An opinion in the West Virginia vs. Barnette case sums it up for me quite well.
“Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people’s representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions.” —Hugo Black, William O. Douglas: West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette
I hope we never forget this.
Quendi
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cyberjesus
"apparently" for some in here, it doesnt really matter what their kids are taught in school nor what activities they are engaged in, as long as it doesnt bother the parent. isnt that wonderful..
No wonder why That pledge means nothing.
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SweetBabyCheezits
Thank you for those thoughts, Quendi. I think that quote makes another great point.
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james_woods
OK, it is obvious to me that SBC has big objections to the pledge of allegiance - and does not want his kids to do it either.
I have this question:
Is the primary reason for the objection political (because it expresses allegiance to the United States)? -
Or, is it religious (because it makes the passing remark "one nation under God"?
I submit that for the JWs - it is at least as much political as it is religious. And, the same for their anti-war, anti-draft doctrines.
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SixofNine
A little more on why it should be a personal decision and why it's not always an obvious choice yeah or nay.
You mentioned the German Heil Hitler, and to that I'll add the JW Malawi situation... in both of those cases, the "right" thing to do for most people would have been to indeed "Heil" or just-sign-the-damn-card; because you can't resist if you are dead. Similarly you can't resist or make change if no one will listen to you because you act so far outside the norm that they think you are unreasonable or a flake or a moonbat; IOW personal politics. It's how reality with fellow humans works, like it or not; and it's never based purely on logic.
A further point being that JW's could have signed the card, but signing a card is not giving allegiance to anyone; you'd think a religion that came up with the term "spiritual warfare" would get that. "Heil Hitler" is not giving allegience to Hitler. And pledging allegience to the flag is whatever-the-hell the individual pledger thinks it is.
My stepdaughter refused to say the pledge and I was proud of her - it had nothing to do with JWism (she probably couldn't even remember what the inside of a KH looked like, by that age). That said, if she wants to do great things in this world, she probably won't get to do them through elected politics (which is where most great things get done).
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just n from bethel
It's not obvious to me.
It is however very clear that he doesn't want his kids repeating prayer-like chants unless they understand what it means. If they could really understand what it means, why do they have to be obligated to engage in this ritual on a daily basis?
They understand what a birthday is. They understand what cake is. They understand what turkeys are and probably have a pretty good understanding of what thanksgiving means currently.
What does the pledge mean? Just words right? no big deal? Then why say them at all? What exactly is the educational purpose of chanting to the symbol of the invisible borders that distinguish the country of one's birth from another's? Could my dual citizen kids say another pledge to their other county? Would that teach them something too?
SBC isn't threatening anyone's patriotism here. Hell, he might even say the pledge himself - he hasn't said he wouldn't.
If some people here think JWs are the only place where indoctrination methods are employed, they haven't quite exited the cult mindset - imho. Knowing what indoctrination methods look like should make any parent aware of any religion or government that tries to force them upon your children.
BTW - James Woods - this is not a slight at you. I dig almost all of your posts and am open to a lot of your idealogy.
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just n from bethel
Of course there's always the danger that if McCarthy/Fascism infiltrates it's way back in America, SBCs kids might turn him in, like the traitor that he is. ;)
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just n from bethel
Regarding the Heil Hitler - that's the problem. It was just words, until they weren't. At some point, when the war started, it stood for something way beyond a school yard chant. But they had already programmed the kids to love their Hitler - and to say the ritualistic prayer-like chants forced on kids at young ages didn't have any influence, is naive at best and blind at worst.
Adult individuals knew if they were faking it, and that's fine, and many non-JWs took a stand in whatever way they could. (Schindler anyone?) - but those kids who had been indoctrinated, and went on to be soldiers for Germany - go on and just try and make the case that early indoctrination methods of chanting prayers etc. didn't help create Hitler's youth movement.