How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance now? (page 3)

NomadSoul

LOL @ Overthinking the pledge of allegiance.

just n from bethel

Singing kingdom songs week after week. Daily text reading of WT worship. Repetitive mindless repetitions serve only one point: indoctrination.

In JW land it is indoctrination of the idea that your religion is better than everyone else's. With the pledge there is still mindless indoctrination, that my country is better than everyone else's.

SweetBabyCheezits

SBC: But I don’t make patriotic vows of “my country, right or wrong” and I certainly don’t want my kids to do so.

Carla: so basically you do not really want your kids to exercise their own critical thinking skills but to conform to yours?

Blind allegiance ("My country, right or wrong") is the opposite of critical thinking. I don't own that concept. It is a fundamental principle of critical thinking. WTF?

Also, I'm afraid you didn't read my post thoroughly:" "Of course, I wouldn't just up and tell my kid to STOP this practice because it's bad. My goal is to build critical thinking so that she arrives at her own well-informed conclusion. Then if she makes a stand, it'll be due to her own convictions. (Of course, deep down I hope she'll see it the same way.)"

What if they do love their country and one day want to serve in the military?

Ok, I never said anything about not loving their country. And if they choose to serve in the military, they have my support.

what if they don't feel like being the weirdo in class for now?

Again, if you'd read more thoroughly before piping up, you'd see that I said I wasn't going to STOP her from pledging. But I also am not going to encourage her to conform to popular opinion to avoid feeling like a "weirdo". The herd isn't always right.

if you really wanted them to learn critical thinking skills maybe they could study both sides of the issue without your opinion on the matter and see where they want to end up on the issue.

Perhaps you skimmed my original post too quickly. I said just that.

That would be promoting true critical thinking and coming to ones own conclusions, even if mom & dad don't agree. You may have done the same when you left the jw's, no?

Yeah. I only said that I hope my daughter see it the same way.

I should've realized I would be touching on a patriotic nerve with this kinda post. I intended just to ask how others felt about their kids, views I may not have considered yet.

SweetBabyCheezits

JNFB: In JW land it is indoctrination of the idea that your religion is better than everyone else's. With the pledge there is still mindless indoctrination, that my country is better than everyone else's.

I totally agree. And not that the pledge is effective indoctrination but I do think that's what it is.

Nomad: LOL @ Overthinking the pledge of allegiance.

Thanks for your input.

NomadSoul

You're very welcomed!

SweetBabyCheezits

TEC: I don't think you have to worry about your child being brainwashed or not using critical thinking skills. Not from what you've posted about teaching those skills.

Thanks, Tammy. I hope you're right. I talk about it a lot but don't know how effective my efforts are. Understandably, critical thinking skills don't rank quite as high as iCarly on her priority list right now. :-D

The pledge can get lost as a simple tradition that is words without meaning. What you teach is more important.

True. And she had a project recently that we worked on together. She had to talk about the Lincoln Memorial and why it's important to US history, which included research on Lincoln's presidency. IMO, things like that will help build appreciation for a country's liberty more than a monotonous pledge.

keyser soze

Your phrasing is slanted here, KS. How would I 'make my child a source of ridicule'?

Fair enough. I used a poor choice of words, so I'll rephrase: Are the reasons important enough for your child to be a target of ridicule?

Of course, I wouldn't just up and tell my kid to STOP this practice because it's bad. My goal is to build critical thinking so that she arrives at her own well-informed conclusion. Then if she makes a stand, it'll be due to her own convictions

Admirable, so long as 'building critical thinking' doesn't consist solely of you telling her all the reasons that something is bad. Your opinion of the pledge of allegiance is just that your opinion. If her refusal to say the pledge of allegiance is the result of ideas you have put into her head, then she isn't standing by her own convictions, she is merely echoing yours, even if she chooses on her own to do so.

OnTheWayOut

I am right there with you, SBC. I don't have kids and it's looking like I won't have kids so it won't come up in my life.

But I really feel that the pledge is a mild form of training for citizens and the "under God" part is such nonsense. I wouldn't want my child ostracized for her/his stand when it really is my stand, so I would let her go along with the crowd until they were ready to decide on their own.

The training is so mild that counter-training would be pretty easily done. I would use it as a lesson in critical thinking. If she chose to continue saying the pledge, my daughter would at least know that it's just a silly ritual and she could snicker at her ability to know more than the other kids about it.

just n from bethel

KS said: If her refusal to say the pledge of allegiance is the result of ideas you have put into her head, then she isn't standing by her own convictions, she is merely echoing yours, even if she chooses on her own to do so.

The requirement for her to say it isn't her own idea either. If kids want to say it - because the school system taught the educational value behind it - vs. saying " hey you're american, (Russian, greek, nazi, or whatever country someone is in where there's a required chanting ritual) so you have to say this!"

But it's school policy - and not really presented as optional. So, parents have to interject if they want kids to think it through - the gov't and the school system sure don't explain it as optional.

SweetBabyCheezits

KS: I used a poor choice of words, so I'll rephrase: Are the reasons important enough for your child to be a target of ridicule?

That, sir, is a fair and valid question. I appreciate your consideration in rephrasing it.

To answer your question, that will be her decision after a consideration of relevant facts. If she prefers to avoid the ridicule, she can do whatever she likes without fear of disapproval from her mother and I.

But the school does not give her the other perspective anymore than the WT gives adherents the other side. That is up to us as her parents. And I will take the same approach when discussing god and religion, using the phrase "I believe" this or that and also let her know that I could be wrong, as I have been in the past. But as I said earlier, blind allegiance to anything is the antithesis critical thinking.

Coincidentally, I hadn't considered a number of the reasons I listed until I read a book on non-theistic parenting. The author objected to the pledge for several of the aforementioned reasons. I found his logic compelling. In the same way, I hope to offer my daughter another perspective as well, not force it.

OTWO: I wouldn't want my child ostracized for her/his stand when it really is my stand, so I would let her go along with the crowd until they were ready to decide on their own.

Very well put, OTWO. She shouldn't have to make a stand for me.

KS: If her refusal to say the pledge of allegiance is the result of ideas you have put into her head, then she isn't standing by her own convictions, she is merely echoing yours, even if she chooses on her own to do so.

JNFB: The requirement for her to say it isn't her own idea either.

That is the most powerful point yet. The pledge itself isn't her own conviction. If anything, it's a conviction being shoved down her throat. And that's what I'm fighting. This isn't a battle to get her to echo my words... it is a battle for her to NOT have to echo someone else's. It's the principle.

How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance now?

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