How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance now?

by SweetBabyCheezits 101 Replies latest jw friends

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  Band on the Run

  My mom was expelled from high school for flag salute. It led me to see the importance of law in protecting minorities. I used to worship the Court. My profs. always said I was only looking at one snap shot in time. Over time, the Court has been very bad protecting rights. They were right.

  We were allowed to salute the flag in elementary school b/c there were no snitches around. It was during the Cold War. We weren't learning skills - only antiRussian propaganda. I knew I would die during the Cuban Missle Crisis. We practiced hiding under our desks, memorized all the civil defense shelters in the neighborhood so we could go there when the bomb came. I wanted to be with my parents when i died. Terrible times, much worse than 9.11. The social pressure to salute would have been extraordinary. Besides, the Witnesses were very clear in non express ways that the uS was the good side.

  So I saluted, then I refusedd b/c of the Viet Nam War. I attended an urban ghetto high school so none of the blacks were saluting. My meek classmates were raising their fists in black power salutes. When it started at the Olympics, I was so afraid of the militants. Soon these black mama's boys who would never hurt anyone were raising their fists. The principal asked why I wasn't saluting. I said Jehovah Witness family but I also believed the war should end and anyone to signal that was fair game.

  After September 11th, I relished the chance to salute again. I am a New Yorker. My mom and I were together. People were saluting at events that never had flag salute before. Tears welled in my eyes. There was such a sense of strong community, that we were being forged to be ready.

  If the US does something foul again, like Viet Nam, I will not salute again. My mom was deeply traumatized by the flag salute issue. It did not seem a principled reason to be a low paid flunkey forever. It was not central to Witness belief, just the way blood is not central. It is being yanked by Bethel. The United States fought very hard with the Allies. If the US did not fight the Axis, would Bethel allow Hitler to confiscate the main assets and send people like me to concentration camps. I was raised with neutrality but the acknowledgement that we were American JWS and we were very lucky.
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  Evidently Apostate

  SBC

  i remember my son refused to salute the flag in 1st grade. we had coached him just like every good jw parent does he was put on the spot by his teacher and was proud to defend his beliefs. when this was related at teh hall the p.o. told his experience from the platform. i remember thinking how proud i was back then.

  i would not call them HIS beliefs though and after reading most of your posts, i have had the same thoughts for awhile and imho it is more important to let my kids be kids and do what makes them comfortable always giving them the courage and confidence to make THIER OWN decision as to what and when to stand up for. this goes against the jw creed and has always bothered my wife (a born in). i understand the somewhat brainwashing effect that the pledge can seem like and i am not ready to make the decision for myself but i have other young children in school and will not pressure them to parrot indoctrinated beliefs or take a blind faith stand in a country that has a lot wrong with it ( leadership). and this is a BIG issue in my marriage right now.

  EA
• 

  Wasanelder Once

  SBC: I think that the repetitive action of the flag salute is nothing compared to being armed against it by the teaching of parents. For me it was the JW rationale. Even since the JW's I have a revulsion for nationalism. I've seen the logic of it throughout the years. When a child keeps getting conflicting messages about what is ok and what is not it is not good. That's my point. Just as they are too young in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th grade to "dedicate" their life to Jehovah (WT) they are too young to comprehend they are pledging thier allegience to this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic. It ain't that big a deal, if you give them somthing solid to hang onto. Sounds like your evolving "ethical" stand is being made clear to your child. The reality is that children will please their parents in either case. If you told them blue fairys hate the flag they would buy that till they grow up and find out its bull. Don't sell short a mind that thinks critically. I applaud you for doing your job as a parent and caring enough to do so. It's getting kind of rare these days don't you think. Accept my apologies for not appreciating your expressions fully. I just don't see that kids take the pledge as seriously as you. Not everyone who recited the Hitler salute had love in their heart for Uncle Adolf. Very many were afraid and the silly childhood ritual became a life preserving practice later in life. Peace.
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  just n from bethel

  Very many were afraid and the silly childhood ritual became a life preserving practice later in life.

  actually it depends on whose life you're talking about. If you were on the other side of the Hitler Youth Brigade who were chanting to their great master as they had done since a kid, you weren't so lucky. As a jew, it didn't matter how many Heil Hitler's you said - you were done for.

  If on the other hand, more German parents taught their kids like SBC's proposing, perhaps Hitler wouldn't have had the army to back his genocide.

  And at what age is it too young to teach your kids to stand for universal principles of right and wrong? If they can't take a stand when - as most here have said - it's just meaningless words, how will they take a stand when the words may later become more meaingful, but not in a good way?
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  james_woods

  Ladies and Gentlemen - Adolph Hitler is off the topic here. It is amusing to see the far left use this bogeyman every time this kind of issue surfaces. You could just as easily demonize Joseph Stalin or Chairman Mao, but somehow the far left never does.

  SBC is trying to decide whether or not to tell his child to participate in the school flag salute. He has, I believe, indicated that he has no religious objection to it.

  My point, in turn, is that I see nothing wrong politically or ethically with patriotic instruction in U.S. public schools.

  I would remind observers of this thread, who are anti-flag salute or other patriotic acts, of two things:

  1) - The U.S. WW2 Military, largely responsible for putting an end to the Hitler dictatorship, came from patriotic American kids.

  2) - The Vietnam War protest kids, almost to a person, were just out of high school or college and had saluted the flag all through school. I know, because I had just graduated from high school (1967) and I was there. The flag salute did not spoil their conscience or make "neo-Nazis" out of them.

  Patriotism carries positive values for society. It encourages peaceful civic participation (i.e. public service, voting, etc.) - which, in a free democracy can change things that go wrong and reinforce things that are good about the law and the society.
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  just n from bethel

  It's amazing how you take one position that is about thinking and not really about taking sides, and suddenly those who you share mostly similar idealogy with, classify you in the box opposite themselves.

  Thus ladies and gentlemen: Why I could never be a rebuplican or democrat - you have to think exactly like they want on every issue - or you're not patriotic.

  All the other nations that don't impose flag salutes on 4 year olds must not produce patriotic individuals.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  He has, I believe, indicated that he has no religious objection to it.

  Just to be clear, the "under God" line irks me but that's not my primary objection. If that were my only issue, I'd probably just offer that she say the words "under law" instead.

  My point, in turn, is that I see nothing wrong politically or ethically with patriotic instruction in U.S. public schools.

  The issue isn't patriotic instruction, it's patriotic indoctrination. Coerced oaths are not the same thing as a US history education. As I said before, I helped my daughter prepare a poster and report of the Lincoln Memorial and it's significance in US history. I take no issue with that.

  The U.S. WW2 Military, largely responsible for putting an end to the Hitler dictatorship, came from patriotic American kids.

  And the Third Reich was composed mostly from patriotic German kids. Should a child be expected to assume that his country and it's government will always take the moral high ground and, therefore, offer undying loyalty to it? That is blind allegiance.

  The Vietnam War protest kids, almost to a person, were just out of high school or college and had saluted the flag all through school. I know, because I had just graduated from high school (1967) and I was there. The flag salute did not spoil their conscience or make "neo-Nazis" out of them.

  With this reasoning you could also say that the mere existence of born-ins-turned-apostate means that JW indoctrination doesn't hinder critical thinking in JW youth. That, we know, is not the case, despite the fact that some escape.

  Patriotism carries positive values for society. It encourages peaceful civic participation (i.e. public service, voting, etc.) - which, in a free democracy can change things that go wrong and reinforce things that are good about the law and the society.

  Some JW instruction includes positive values (peace, honesty, etc). But the cons far outweigh the pros so I don't want my kid pressured to recite Kingdom Melodies.

  Why not just teach kids positive values and let their love for country come from a study of it's history and a genuine appreciation for that in which it stands, if it is so worthy?

  Wiki: ...Patriotism is a devotion to one's country for no other reason than being a citizen of that country.

  To me, that's kinda like being devoted to one's religion for no other reason than being born into it.
• 

  tec

  Coerced oaths are not the same thing as US history.

  I hate to feed the fire, because I really don't think that your daughter is going to turn into an indoctrinated zombie because of this pledge. You'll be teaching her to think for herself at home, for a fact.

  But...

  I don't like to hear children taking oaths, either, especially oaths that they have no understanding of. I used scouts earlier, so I will again... "I promise to do my duty to God and the Queen..."

  The queen? Really? I don't even think they know who the Queen is, and they certainly don't owe her any duty. Even an oath to God... that is a decision for them to make, if they choose.

  I don't like oaths at all, actually, but I don't really have a problem with them if the person making them is fully aware of what it means, and fully wants to make that oath for themselves. (a person should, however, consider an oath as binding as a physical contract) But I don't think they should be forced or coerced into reciting one by rote.

  Now, my oldest no longer attends Scouts of his own choice, and my youngest just fidgets during the flag stuff and doesn't even say the oath (mostly because its just blah, blah, blah to him). So I didn't think about the issue too much, or worry about it.

  But I do think now that I will have a talk with them both, and assure them that they are under no obligation whatsoever to recite any oath or prayer that they don't want to.

  Such a simple thing to tell them... but you know, unless they hear the words from someone they trust, as children they probably don't know they have that option.

  Tammy
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  james_woods

  Well, hell, SBC - why beat yourself up about it on a five page thread?

  Just tell her not to say the pledge and be done with it.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  why beat yourself up about it on a five page thread? Just tell her not to say the pledge and be done with it.

  How am I beating myself up? I was looking for any perspective I hadn't considered yet. So far, several points have been made within these five pages that I didn't think about before and I truly appreciate those comments. I've tweaked my thinking and approach a bit due to input from others.

  And 'just telling her not to say the pledge' was never an option. I've stated that a number of times. I'm only going to offer her a perspective she likely hasn't heard yet and let her know it's okay to refuse to pledge if she doesn't wish to make that oath right now. If she recites the pledge anyway, I will still rest easy. At least she's been informed of her rights and alternate views.

  FWIW, writing helps me sort out my own thinking, too.