How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance now?

by SweetBabyCheezits 101 Replies latest jw friends

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  SweetBabyCheezits

  James: Is the primary reason for the objection political (because it expresses allegiance to the United States)? Or, is it religious (because it makes the passing remark "one nation under God"?

  If you're looking for the underlying reason, I'd classify it as primarily ethical for the collective reasons outlined since the beginning of this thread.

  Why should my child be pressured to make a pledge that does not reflect her own convictions in the first place? To instill some sense of national pride? As one humanitarian put it, "If our country deserves the respect of its citizens, that respect should be earned and freely and individually expressed. If we need to bolster love of country through semi-coerced oaths, something ain't right."

  Six: And pledging allegience to the flag is whatever-the-hell the individual pledger thinks it is.

  So if the pledge is both ineffective and meaningless, I can't help but wonder why its part of my kid's school's morning routine.
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  SixofNine

  - but those kids who had been indoctrinated, and went on to be soldiers for Germany

  The horrors of Germany came from "good Germans" not some zombie youth movement. Of course kids should be inocculated from "programming", but the way to do that is not to program them yourself, it's to teach them how to think. And that means responding to the environment you find yourself in.
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  SixofNine

  So if the pledge is both ineffective and meaningless...

  I didn't believe it is totally ineffective and it is certainly not meaningless. I would say, for instance, that it's ability to inspire devotion was probably across-the-board much higher in the year after 9/11 than it is now or in the years previous. PAID (the Pledge's Ability to Inspire Devotion) was probably at an all time low around the end of the Vietnam war.
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  just n from bethel

  I'm with you Six, I just don't see how repeating mindless chants teaches kids how to think.

  Obviously the government thinks it teaches something.

  As for good Germans, not being connected in any way to the mind-controlled youth movements - My studies in history, including visits to mutliple concentration camps, tell me otherwise.
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  SixofNine

  Obviously the government thinks it teaches something.

  I suspect they know it's not "teaching", it's indoctrination.

  As for good Germans, not being connected in any way to the mind-controlled youth movements

  I don't know why you said that; it seems totally disconnected to anything in the previous conversation. Please elaborate specifically on this part: " not being connected in any way". Thanks.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Six: Of course kids should be inocculated from "programming", but the way to do that is not to program them yourself, it's to teach them how to think. And that means responding to the environment you find yourself in.

  I'm not sure if you're talking about me or just discussing in general terms. Have I said anything that makes it seem like I'm just substituting one indoctrination for another? My words from this earlier post are very similar to yours....

  SBC (post 1387): While I'm not telling her what to do, I am certainly sharing new perspectives on it so she can make an educated decision based on pertinent facts. As I said before, I hope to teach her how to think, not what to think. Blind acceptance need not apply.
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  just n from bethel

  Its not that big of a deal. But the "good germans" included many who had been subject to the nationalistic rituals from young ages. That's all. Some were in the Hitler Youth movement. In 1936 that number was 4 million.

  

  I'm sure some of these parents wished they had taught their kids to think better.
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  SixofNine

  I'm not sure if you're talking about me or just discussing in general terms.

  I was responding to something from just n from bethel actually. But just so you know, as a rule, I'm ALWAYS discussing things in general terms unless I'm not. And even then I am.

  Have I said anything that makes it seem like I'm just substituting one indoctrination for another?

  Not at all. I wish all parents were as thoughtful and respectful of their children as you obviously are.
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  SixofNine

  those kids were just lining up to get tickled by unka Adolph.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Okay, thanks, Six.

  I'd mentioned JW programming once and an insulted family member implied that we were just reprogramming them to see things our way. From that point on I decided to try to avoid anything that resembled indoctrination.

  That's not exactly easy as a parent who has to set boundaries. Tough balance.