Congresswoman Shot in Tucson

by leavingwt 442 Replies latest social current

  • BurnTheShips
    Intentional homicides by country
    More stats from The UN, no offence BTS but please treat information from the Mail with suspicion most in The UK do

    No two countries count homicides the same, LLBH.

    US counts things as homicide that the UK does not:

    For the UK, "‘homicide’ covers the offences of murder, manslaughter and infanticide."

    Homicide does not include “Causing death by dangerous driving” which "includes causing death by careless driving whilst under the influence of drink or drugs and causing death by aggravated vehicle taking."

    So, the UK does not include a significant number of careless driving homicides that are included in US homicide numbers.

    In the US, an initial categorization of homicide counts as homicide for the national record. In the UK, these come off the rolls if the defendant is later found to be innocent of homicide in court. This inflates US numbers for purposes of comparison.

    In the area of murder, analyses typically use FBI homicide reports, but the FBI reports initial police determinations for homicides which tend to undercount civilian defensive shootings (excusable homicides) and over-count felony homicides by about 12%. In UK reporting, homicide classifications and counts are continually revised over time with initial police reports being revised as courts or prosecutors make evaluations.

    The Brits reclassify homicides from results of investigations."Where the police initially record an offence as homicide it remains classified unless the police or courts decide later that no offence or homicide took place. This would mean that a defensive killing that a court in England held was justified would no longer be counted in England, but the same would not be true in the US because the FBI homicide classification policy does not allow revisions.

    In the US, the FBI classifies homicide according to first police determinations and they are not reclassified by investigations.

    However, overall violent crimes are higher in the UK.

    We may quibble over exact numbers, but the trends I showed in my previous post are clear.

    US crime rates have gradually fallen under a more liberalized firearms regime. The UK's have sharply risen under a more draconian one.

    There is simply no logical argument you can make against this factual statement on trends above.



  • beksbks

    Terry do you think that a climate of fear/insecurity/anger is a contributing factor? Do you think our leadership and media have been instrumental in creating that climate of fear and anger?

  • straightshooter

    Hope the best for her. Very sad that someone would want to kill for their ideals.

  • beksbks
    But criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured.
    New Home Secretary Alan Johnson is to make his first major speech on crime today
    In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is injured.

    Read more:

    In current English Law, affray forms part of the Public Order Act 1986 under section 3. The act states:

    1. A person is guilty of affray if he uses or threatens unlawful violence towards another and the person's conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety.
    2. Where two or more persons use or threaten the unlawful violence, it is the conduct of them taken together that must be considered for the purpose of subsection (1)
    3. For the purposes of this section a threat cannot be made by the use of words alone.
    4. No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene.
    5. Affray may be committed in private as well as in public places.
  • villabolo

    Terry, a recent quote from alternet.

    "The fact that the shooter is mentally ill does not mean that his mind and brain exist in a vacuum. Righ-wing talkers were the first shooters in an increasingly uncivil war."

    See the big picture and stop hiding behind this one individual out of many who have been inspired to murder immigrants right after incendiary racist talks by politician; attack liberal institutions at the prodding of right wing talkers; and numerous threats and acts of vandalism throughout the past few years.

    Get some responsibility hypocrites!

    thetrueone, finger wagging moralism is pointless. You're dealing with psychopaths and narcissists and I suggest you become acquianted with what a psychopath and a narcissist truly is in order to disabuse yourself of the notion that you can reason with them.


  • BurnTheShips

    Looks like this guy has a history of making death threats.....and the Pima County Sheriff did nothing about it.

    We had warning.

    Jared Loughner is a product of Sheriff Dupnik’s office

    This is the report that Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has been dreading since the tragic event on Saturday January 8.

    The sheriff has been editorializing and politicizing the event since he took the podium to report on the incident. His blaming of radio personalities and bloggers is a pre-emptive strike because Mr. Dupnik knows this tragedy lays at his feet and his office. Six people died on his watch and he could have prevented it. He needs to step up and start apologizing to the families of the victims instead of spinning this event to serve his own political agenda.

    Jared Loughner, pronounced by the Sheriff as Lock-ner, saying it was the Polish pronunciation. Of course he meant Scott or Irish but that isn’t the point. The point is he and his office have had previous contact with the alleged assailant in the past and that is how he knows how to pronounce the name.

    Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation. My sympathies and my heart goes out to her and the rest of Mr. Loughner’s family. This tragedy must be tearing them up inside wondering if they had done the right things in trying to manage Jared’s obvious mental instability.

    Every victim of his threats previously must also be wondering if this tragedy could have been prevented if they had been more aggressive in pursuing charges against Mr. Loughner. Perhaps with a felony conviction he would never have been able to lawfully by the Glock 9mm Model 19 that he used to strike down the lives of six people and decimate 14 more.

    This was not an act of politics. This was an act of a mentally disturbed young man hell bent on getting his 15 minutes of infamy. The Pima County Sheriff’s Department was aware of his violent nature and they failed to act appropriately. This tragedy leads right back to Sherriff Dupnik and all the spin in the world is not going to change that fact.

  • cofty
    I think it brings into focus how rediculously broken American politics is. No one really discusses the issues, instead they hurl insults and shout "la la la I can't hear you"

    S peaking an outsider this is also my overall impression. Its just bizarre listening to the kind of vitriol that passes for debate in the Foxified US media.

    Carry on....

  • purplesofa

    In one of Dupniks interviews he admitted this, although he did not say it was in his jurisdiction.

    thanks six

  • llbh

    Thanks to you Beks that is the the sort of thing I was alluding to, actual bodily harm (ABH) can be levied even without violence I know of a family member who has a criminal record for violence even though no act was committed, such is the seriousness with which we take violence here; just to carry a firearm carries a non negotiable five year stretch.


  • Violia

    Yes it is a tragedy but political debate will go on. Political debate is healthy and gives us all the right to speak. Most folks know we don't do shoot outs , we vote. That is the usa at its best. Strong firey debate with everyone having a say. Looks like they need to beef up security for all officals. There are always going to be deranged, mentally ill folks . The most popular dellusions are regarding the government and religion. Psych people are supposed to report this stuff, eg, if someone makes a threat against anyone ( frequently the president) they are to report it and it should be investigated. Mental illness is not a legal excuse. Insanity is a legal defense but ( not knowing right from wrong) is very hard to prove and seldom works as a defense. AZ has the death penalty and maybe this would be a good time to use it. Otherwise we just have to lock him up for a very long time , as he is very young.

    Better treatment and diagnosis of mental illness could have saved a lot of lives. The mental health system in most of the usa is a joke. Frequently it consists of the jail as the place of treatment and then they end up on the streets. The sheriff taking this seriously may have helped. Looks like he fell through the cracks in a lot of areas.

    Let the political debates continue. This is the usa and we debate and vote here.

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