Feb. 15 Study WT - More creationism and stupidity - A response

by eric356 109 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    BXJW, there's no need to abandon belief in a Creator while still acknowledging evolution. But God's Creation comes from his mind, and nothing becomes "reality" until it first goes through a thought process. Have you ever designed anything and created it? Was it not a picture in your mind before it manifested itself through your work?

    In the same way, you have to comprehend involution before evolution. The Bible speaks of both, in an allegory. That's why there are two different creation stories in the first two chapters of Genesis. It was not one "author". See "Documentary Hypothesis".

    Reading it literally? Literary giants like Mark Twain certainly had some fun with it.

    JW's let the Corporation do their thinking for them.

    Believing Ex-JW's let the Bible do their thinking for them.

    When you can think for yourself, you're free!

    ~PS

  • HintOfLime
    HintOfLime
    Evolution cannot be proven. If you have irrefutable evidence of macro-evolution present it. I'd be happy to see it here on this forum.

    Creationist: "Humans cannot walk."

    Scientist: "Sure they can, here is the evidence for it." (Scientists provides video of man walking across a room).

    Creationist: "No, walking cannot be proven. That was a micro-walk. I want to see irrefutable evidence for a macro-walk."

    - Lime

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    There are more, but fundemantally, you can't read Genesis and think that evolution is by any way, shape, or form what it is talking about. So, I disagree with your statement

    Who told you to read Genesis and think AYTHING but story?

    Dude, lets for oen moment think that God actually spoke to Moses and it was Moses that wrote genesis ( We in fact know that it was a combination of two oral tradtions), which verision do you think ancient man would understand?

    The evolutionary process of the universe with its established constants and principles?

    A story like the one told in Genesis?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Side point...if god created Eve only AFTER Adam was lonely why did god give Adam reproductive organs in the first place? What was the plan there? Pretty much everything in nature has a male/female dependecy for propagation of life. So he created Adam with "junk" for no reason? THEN decided to match a woman up to him? Right.

    Has evolution stated WHICH gender of species was the first to evolve?

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Maybe believingex doesnt really exist...

    Can you prove he isnt some projection of another persons imagination.

    After all the Bible was written by dictation from various imaginary friends of the prophets.

    And not one of the "promises" ever happened.

    HB

  • simon17
    simon17

    Who told you to read Genesis and think AYTHING but story?

    If you are willing to concede that much of Genesis is allegory then, sure, I dont think evolution is necessarily at odds with faith in the Bible... And like others have said, it is certainly not at odds with a "God" in general.

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    And you cannot PROVE to me that evolution alone has produced the world we live in. I am open to you doing so.

    Just because it cannot be proved to you does not mean it cannot be proved. There are still morons that think the earth is flat or that the holocaust never happened. You would fit right in. Willfully ignorant and determined to stay so. It's amazing you are an ex JW.

  • sd-7
    sd-7

    My first thought on this issue is that the Watchtower Society is referring to the ideas of others as "propaganda". Scientific analysis, when practiced with regard for ethics and avoiding confirmation bias, is, if anything, the opposite of propaganda. Scientists present evidence based on facts, logic, and observation. Otherwise, they're not very good scientists. The Society is known for engaging in name-calling, labeling, intimidation and blanket statements--using propaganda techniques as described in its very own literature. I'm thinking it was a June 2000 Awake that discusses propaganda techniques.

    I'm not inclined to trust the Society, which USES propaganda techniques, when they label others who disagree with them as using "propaganda". They refer to apostates' ideas as "propaganda" as well, and generally, 'apostates' present hard evidence from the Watchtower itself. So...I think that really settles it for me. The messenger here is known for trying to cover its own behind and distort facts to make itself look better.

    I've yet to study evolution thoroughly, but the thing that gets me is, the Bible is pretty vague in terms of its descriptions of the ENTIRE POPULATION OF PLANTS AND ANIMALS. I don't think it's fair to assume the Genesis account is sufficient for telling us precisely what happened at the dawn of life on Earth, simply because it's lacking in detail. God, if indeed he's out there and authored the Bible, would probably have known that man would eventually become smart enough to figure out those details himself.

    I don't see evolution as denying the existence of God. Perhaps it denies the accuracy of the Genesis account, which again, isn't that detailed. That, of course, ruffles some religious feathers. But remember that religion killed people for believing the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. So I wouldn't be too inclined to trust religion as far as scientific matters go. The JWs would've been DF'ing people for that same belief if they were around back then, I'm sure, unless the GB decreed otherwise.

    My thought is, well, Whatever caused life to show up...let's say it is God. It would make a lot more sense if he actually designed the concept of evolution. Rather than having to shape every grain of dust into a living being, he could simply set the process in motion and allow evolution to create the vast amount of variety we see in living things today. Man, the apparent pinnacle of evolution, with his capacity to reason, would have the ability to survive in nearly every conceivable environment on the planet. This would make it easier for when he tossed them out of paradise for their inevitable rebellion, if you want to take it that far. But giving life adaptability is, if you ask me, a sort of perfection that could easily glorify a Designer, not denigrate him.

    Either way, evolution is undeniable, even for me, a person who feels like...well, he's not sure what to believe about God, save that the Bible doesn't give a full picture of him if he's out there. Think about all those drug-resistant bacteria we hear about in the news. That's a form of evolution. Somebody doesn't finish their antibiotics or whatever, and the surviving bacteria rifle through the remains of their fellow bacteria and acquire whatever useful traits they need, then they become stronger, they assimilate improvements onto themselves. They've no need to say, gee, in order to prove Christians right, I better not change any of my characteristics. No, they change, they evolve, so that what would have destroyed their ancestors is ineffective on them.

    Maybe that was a result of being created with DNA. If that were so, the Bible is silent on DNA or on, frankly, most scientific details. If it were up to people like the Society, no scientific research would be allowed at all, unless it benefitted the Governing Body. I still hear my mom and others say that we shouldn't be exploring space because God made the Earth for us. Well, where did he command that we not go out into space? That's not even in the Bible. Why would exploration be wrong according to the One who supposedly made us with the capacity to explore and to reason? It would be like making a bike for your kid and then telling him/her never to ride it. What's the point? If reasoning was just made for the sole purpose of worship, it makes God look rather insecure about his position. I don't think that God's like that if he's out there. He wouldn't need to be, would probably be largely unaffected by one population of beings on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy out of 50 billion-plus galaxies. Seems kind of silly.

    But I noticed that quote from the Feb. 15th WT. It's just another example of the fear the Society has about the growth of knowledge and reason threatening its own personal desire to maintain the Dark Ages.

    -sd-7

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    I had no Idea this was a funny thread..I would have gotten here faster..

    LOL!!..

    BelievingxJW does not want to believe in Evolution..Regardless of any facts you may present..

    Now..

    Lets find a ladder and help her get back,into her tree..

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/TromboneTree.jpg/350px-TromboneTree.jpg

    ........................... ...OUTLAW

  • Fadeout
    Fadeout

    There seems to be such a basic, fundamental lack of understanding of the scientific process, and of the very purpose of science, by the religious-minded.

    As Simon17 already pointed out, the way science works, and the reason it works so well, is because it is tremendously easier to DISprove a theory than to prove it. A good scientific theory will include predictions based on the theory's assumptions. If it can be demonstrated even in one instance that the theory does not hold true, then the theory is false. This, however, is not a failure of science but a success. It is just as important to determine what is false as to determine what is true, because not only do we want to believe true things, but we want to NOT believe FALSE things.

    The concept of "belief" is very dangerous because we will always be biased toward supporting our beliefs even in the face of contrary evidence. The Watchtower says you MUST believe something; if you don't believe them, they ask, "Where else will you go?" This, however, is illogical. It is entirely possible that you simply don't know where to go, but that does not mean you should stick with the Watchtower even though they give every evidence of being wrong.

    In my opinion, the willingness to admit 'I don't know' is the start of learning and a requirement for anyone seeking truth. When your starting premise is a belief instead of an awareness of your own ignorance, you cannot but create a fantasy world of beliefs rather than perform an honest evaluation of evidence.

    So asking someone to prove a scientific theory may be impossible, depending on the asker's definition of proof. The fact that reliance on scientific theories will let us land men on the moon may "prove" certain theories about physics to some people's satisfaction, since presumably, if the theories were false, reliance on them for such a delicate mission would only end in disaster. But a reasonable person could suggest that the theory (for example, of gravity) is currently incorrect in some way, positing that while the current model does allow space missions to succeed, the theory breaks down under certain not-yet-tested conditions. Thus, to such a person, the theory of gravity, in its current form, is yet unproven.

    So when xjw says "prove [macro]evolution," we really don't know what form of proof would be acceptable, since she has declined to state any proof conditions. I suspect that she has no formal college education; certainly not in any scientific field, or she would understand the vague and invalid nature of her request. It's similar to asking her to "prove that The Watchtower is not God's approved channel."

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