I'm curious...

by JediMaster 75 Replies latest jw experiences

  • cyberjesus

    (May the force be with you and peace to all men of good will)

    Dont Tell an anointed person how to be! they are anointed! Is like asking a trekkie why they like star trek so much! is their own business!

    I just have a question: If the whole JW and their doctrine all a lie.... so someone who believes to be one of the kings inside that farse is a .........?

  • agonus

    Them's pyramids on that there necklace!

  • AGuest
    Hi Aguest

    Greetings to you, again, dear Debator... and may you have peace!

    Respectfully I believe Your speculations on Paul's words and motivation are beyond what is written. Inspired scriptures God's words cannot cancel each other out You are just making it imperfect words of men but that is unscriptural.

    I absolutely AGREE that INSPIRED SCRIPTURES... cannot cancel each other out... which is one of the ways we KNOW that some of the books are NOT inspired. But, again, we also KNOW... that all INSPIRED expressions... do NOT ORIGINATE WITH GOD. So, just because something IS inspired... or one claims to BE inspired... does NOT mean such inspiration... originated with God. Right?

    2 Peter 1:20 - Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

    No PROPHECY of scripture... came about at by the prophet's OWN interpretation. Yes, I absolutely agree. Yet, Paul often gave his own opinion... did he not? Let me ask you: what "law" was Paul referring to when he said "Let the women keep silent in the congregations"? What law, when he said, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man but to be in silence?"

    I should caution you that you might want to go back and re-read the account of Deborah, a woman, and who all she "exercised authority over" (including not only men, but PROMINENT men) as a judge in Israel... and who established her AS that judge... as well as the account of Huldah, Anna, and the daughters of Philip. And then ponder over GOD'S words, set down by His Prophet JAH-el (known to you, as "Joel") that "I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will certainly prophesy."

    Yet, Paul... initially tried to restrict this fulfillment of SCRIPTURE. (Hebrews 1:1)

    and peter on Pauls words, all of them. "He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

    First, you're assuming (1) that those words "as they do the other Scriptures" is accurate. It is not. The Greek word used by the WTBTS and other translation as "other" is "loipos" which means:

    1) remaining, the rest

    a) the rest of any number or class under consideration

    b) with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number

    c) the rest of the things that remain

    The WTBTS chose, like many others, to use the word in the context of 1a; however the true context is 1b. Why do they use 1a? Because they believe Paul's letters to be "inspired (by God)" and thus "scripture." But Paul's letters are NOT of that "specific class or number" as the scriptures.

    Second, you, and they... are dismissing JOHN'S words, which, although ALSO not scripture (not these; his Revelation and gospel account are), state:

    "These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU .And as for YOU , the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU , and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU ; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU , remain in union with him." 1 John 2:26, 27

    Now in light of your words above, that "Inspired scriptures God's words cannot cancel each other out..." I ask you: to whom should I pay attention? Paul, who was NOT one of the 12, who, in fact, did not even ASSOCIATE with the 12 for some 14 years after he almost irreparably divided the Corinthian congregation with his OWN teaching regarding "judging" (which did NOT come from the Holy Spirit - it COULD NOT... because Christ taught a SURPASSING way...); or John... who was not only one of the 12, but anointed for his FAITH (unlike Paul, who was chosen due to a bloodguilt)... AND considered the "beloved" of Christ so that it was HE... and NOT Paul... who received the revelation (although Paul had hoped it would be him)?

    Paul said be like him... listen to him... he was their "teacher." John said... listen to the anointing so that you didn't need ANYONE to be teaching you but the anointing from Christ. CHRIST said... well, what DID Christ say about how we would be taught?

    The apostles themselves Acknowledged Pauls words to be scripture

    Really? Can you show that to me? I mean, I know Peter acknowledged PAUL... but NO WHERE did he say Paul's writings were scripture. He didn't say his were, either. Let's look at Luke's accounts. Before we do, I wish to remind you that "scripture"... is "inspired", yes? And what does "inspired" mean? Well, I know you know that definition "received from God." Okay, I'll grant you that, for purposes of this discussion (the truth, however, is that "inspired" means the person receiving the information was IN SPIRIT. Check out the prophets... and the Revelation. They were all IN SPIRIT when they received their message. But, for now, we'll go with "received from God", however that took place. Now, then, Luke. Let's start with his gospel account. In his opening, he writes:

    " Whereas many have undertaken to compile a statement of the facts that are given full credence among us,just as those who from [the] beginning became eyewitnesses and attendants of the message delivered these to us,I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent The·oph´i·lus,that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally."

    Okay, we certainly have some problems here with "inspiration," don't we? Let's look:

    Who gave Luke his information? If he was "inspired" it would have been God. But where does LUKE say he got it? From "those who from [the] beginning became eyewitnesses and attendants of the message..." Per Luke, "those... delivered these to us." No involvement by, and thus no "inspiration" from, God there.

    What about the ACCURACY of what he wrote? Surely, if he received it from God... was "inspired"... it was accurate and could be completely relied on, yes? But what does LUKE say as to how he established its accuracy? Per Luke, "I have traced all things from the start with accuracy..." Now, why in the WORLD would he have to do THAT... if he was "inspired" by God? Surely, the Most Holy One of Israel would not have LIED to Luke? Yet, Luke had to "trace all things"... and "from the start."

    What about his commission? Who ASKED Luke to write his account? The Prophets... and John... readily state that they were told to "write"... by God or Christ. Who told LUKE to write? Per Luke, he was commissioned by "you, most excellent The·oph´i·lus." Who the HECK was Theophilus? He certainly wasn't an apostle. Was he even anointed? No. He was a Roman ruler (thus, the "most excellent" address)... who had HEARD about what was occuring between the Jews and the "christians"... particularly Paul ("the things you have been taught orally")... and he wanted to know what the HECK was going on. WHY did the Jews SO hate these "christians" SO much. And much of it was probably taking place in HIS region.

    And who did Luke write his account FOR? The congregation? You? Me? "Christians"? Per LUKE... he wrote "in logical order to you, most excellent The·oph´i·lus, that you may know..."

    Luke, dear Debator, was a hired investigator for Theophilus. He was not commissioned by God... or inspired by God. He interviewed people and researched what they told him so as to put the events in order... and then he presented his findings to Theophilus. He was accurate, thorough, and articulate. And he was most likely PAID.

    C'mon, dear one... WAKE UP! Quit gulping down that tainted 'water'!!

    and not of his own interpretation so your saying he can and can't change his personal interpretations is in direct opposition to this biblical fact of all his words being scripture and not of his interpretation.

    If it "scripture," dear one... it doesn't change. If it is "scripture"... then it is not of his own interpretation. If it is not of his own interpretation, then HE can't change the interpretation. And, yet, he changed his position... on a number of things. Like the WTBTS does...

    As for the position on repentence and forgiveness.... Jesus already set this in a fixed immutable position. "So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. These are non-negotiable words from Jesus. forgiveness only comes after repentence.

    You are in error, dear one, and entirely miss the point of this exhortation. My Lord is saying here that if your brother repents, then forgive him. Indeed, IF HE REPENTS... you MUST forgive him. But... what if he DOESN'T repent? Indeed, what if he isn't YOUR BROTHER? I am to direct you to what he said BEFORE that (which is before because Luke says he wrote "in accurate order", so...):

    "Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU (do those "hating" you repent??), to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU.To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment. Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away do not ask [them] back. Also, just as YOU want men to do to YOU , do the same way to them. And if YOU love those loving YOU , of what credit is it to YOU? For even the sinners love those loving them. And if YOU do good to those doing good to YOU , really of what credit is it to YOU? Even the sinners do the same. Also, if YOU lend [without interest] to those from whom YOU hope to receive, of what credit is it to YOU? Even sinners lend [without interest] to sinners that they may get back as much. To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue becoming merciful,just as YOUR Father is merciful. Moreover, stop judging, and YOU will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and YOU will by no means be condemned. Keep on releasing, and YOU will be released." Luke 6:7-37

    What though, if we do what you are suggesting, hold onto our... judgment... UNLESS and UNTIL our "brother" comes and repents? Let's say he doesn't come seven times in one day... but doesn't come for 7 YEARS. Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that we are obeying Christ if we "keep account of the injury" for SEVEN YEARS?? Even Paul wrote that LOVE... which is the Law's fulfillment... "does not keep account of injury" but "bears... ALL things."

    Are you suggesting that we can keep account... UNTIL such one repents and that it only THEN that we can "release" him? Seriously??

    If so, then I understand why you are still under the control of the WTBTS - because that is THEIR "form of godly devotion," the hypocritical kind that says, "God will forgive ME... indeed, He FORGAVE me even before I was BORN... by giving His Son FOR me... even BEFORE I sinned... but I don't have to forgive OTHERS... unless and until they show ME that they're repentant."

    Seriously, dear one? I don't know where such a "hard" heart came from (well, I do know - they "created" it in you - sigh!)... but I hope with ALL of my might that you learn to "soften" it. Because if you do not... it will be softened for you... but not without GREAT pain and sacrifice on your part.

    I bid you peace... and a bit of the fruit of my Father's holy spirit that is love... and long-suffering... which you can receive from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... if you so wish it (Luke 11:13). Because I'm thinkin' you might really need some of both, right now.

    YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,


  • Gregor

    I have not read the preceeding posts. We elders would note the obvious non qualifiers, like Catholic bible study folks whose handler had not explained the ceremony ("just pass the plate and glass to the next person and don't taste anything!") and they would not be counted for the official report. But there were several who were semi-mentally ill or were just glassy eye fanatic elders who thought they were just waiting on the bench for a GB opening. They were counted as partakers in the official report to Brooklyn.

  • debator

    Hi Aguest

    No keeping account of injury is a personal subject and usually involves both sides repenting but repentence is a main Bible theme.

    Ezekiel 18:32
    For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Jehovah. Repent and live!

    Matthew 3:2
    and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

    Matthew 3:7-10 (New International Version)

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

    Matthew 4:17
    From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

    Luke 17:4
    If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

    Acts 11:18
    When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    Revelation 3:19
    Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

    Rebuke and discipline is showing love as well which any parent knows, it keeps our children safe teaching them accountability and repentence of wrongdoing.

    We are ont talking about silly little offences and personal injuries but major sins that we have to keep the congregation clean from for protection.

  • AGuest
    Hi Aguest

    Greetings, dear Debator... and peace to you!

    No keeping account of injury is a personal subject

    My Lord directs me to ask you, then, dear one:

    "Why did he not wait for repentance... before forgiving... and the ask the Father to forgive... those who had him put to death. There was at least TWO sins involved in their conduct: murder... and bearing false witness against their brother, Christ. Yet... he forgave them and asked the Father to forgive them. Even though they not only showed NO sign of repentance... but continued their "crimes" and went in pursuit of my Lord's disciples. Please explain.

    "Of what had Paul repented BEFORE he was called?" Please clarify.

    and usually involves both sides repenting

    I don't understand: how is both sides responsible for repenting? If your brother commits a sin... where would YOU need to repent?

    but repentence is a main Bible theme.

    It is... for ISRAEL... both the Jews... and the 'Gentiles' (i.e., the 10-tribe kindgom of Israel, the Samaritans)... because THEY... were under the LAW... which Law they had all TRANSGRESSED. And so they needed to have a change of heart, a change of mind... and turn AROUND.

    For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Jehovah. Repent and live! Ezekiel 18:32

    For example, to WHOM was the Prophet speaking?

    and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matthew 3:2

    Who was John the Baptizer addressing? And who at Matthew 3:7-10? Who was addressed at Matthew 4:10? Luke 17:4?

    Again, it is the Gentiles, and thus, Israel... who are being spoken of at Acts 11:18...

    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    Okay, again, I have to ask you: WHO is Peter addressing? Also, you are in error by including this verse. The word "repentance" is inaccurate, as clarified in the NWT Ref. Bible footnote. The actual text stated "a change of mind" or "a change of thinking". (Note: I did tell you I would be using that version and I think you should, too, because there's a LOT going on in those footnotes.)

    Why is this significant? Because the people of the NATIONS (those who were NOT Jews and NOT Gentiles)... had not transgressed the Law... because... they weren't UNDER the Law. They were PROHIBITED from coming into the Law... unless they became "Israel" by means of circumcision.

    BUT... circumcision was no longer required and... BECAUSE THE JEWS REJECTED THEIR KING... the "way" came open to ANYONE who wished to be in the NEW Covenant.

    The Jews (the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah and Benjamin) and Gentiles (10-tribe kingdom of Israel)... had to undergo WATER baptism... AND baptism with holy spirit. However, the NATIONS... only had to undergo ONE baptism (Ephesians 4:4)... that was with holy spirit. They did not need to "repent" of their transgressions against the Law covenant because they weren't PARTIES to the Law Covenant. All THEY needed to do... was have a "change of mind" so that they turned to God... by turning... to Christ.

    Cornelius... was a Gentile. He was a SAMARITAN (from "Caesarea")... and thus, a member of the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel. The WTBTS and others teach that Israel was exiled into Babylon. This... is a LIE. Israel... was exiled... BY Assyria... into SAMARIA ("You will be witnesses of me... in all Judea... AND Samaria...). JUDAH... was exiled into Babylon. Why do they say "Israel"? Because the JEWS... disregarded the existence of the other 10-tribes as BEING "Israel."

    Why? Because centuries before, when the nation of Israel SPLIT (thus, forming the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel, with its king, Jeroboam) and the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah (with its king, Rehoboam)... Israel began to engage in false worship. Rather than worshipping at the temple in Jerusalem and according to its features, Jeroboam began to take priests out of any tribe he pleased (vs. ONLY Levi)... and as a result set up FALSE worship... in Israel's capital city, BETHEL, located in the mountains of Samaria. It became "a center of false worship" among Israel. Judah continued worship at the temple in its capital city, Jerusalem, located in Judea... but eventually false worship abounded there, too.

    The adulteress 10-tribe kingdom of Israel is referred to by the Most Holy of Israel as... "OHOLAH." The adulteress 2-tribe kingdom of Judah is referred to by Him as "OHOLIBAH."

    It was/is THESE... who need to "repent"... in the manner you are speaking.

    Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

    First, you misquoted the verse. Second, this only supports my position that is the ANOINTING that teaches us. CHRIST is the one who "reproves and disciplines" us... not we doing so to one another. He reproved Paul... and saved his LIFE... so that Paul had a change of mind/heart... AS A RESULT. Paul's "repentance" did not come FIRST... it came AS A RESULT... of God's MERCY toward him... through Christ.

    And the same can be applied to the 12: they did not "repent" and so were called to be Christ's disciples. They saw him, he called them, and they followed and got to KNOW him... so that they came to LOVE him... they turned around, had a change of mind... and heart.

    Paul did not "repent" because Christ... or some "elder" said, "Hey, Paul, either you stop or you're out of the congregation," dear one. Christ didn't even give him the option ("for I MUST show him plainly how many things he is to SUFFER... for my name"). Indeed, when Paul himself tried that tactic with the Christian congregation... HE was the one that almost got told to get out. You really should read BOTH accounts, through... and not the [very] selected verses the WTBTS has directed you to over the years.

    Rebuke and discipline is showing love as well which any parent knows, it keeps our children safe teaching them accountability and repentence of wrongdoing.

    Uh-uh, dear one. Again, you are in error. Let's take discipline first:

    Discipline only SHOWS love... if it is DONE in love. Which means it is done... without judging. For example, a LOVING parent would not say to a child, "Dear one, don't play in the street... or I'm going to kick you out of the house." Or, "Dear one, the house rules are you can't go past the fence, but now you've gone past the fence 8 times... and so now, you must back your bags and get out... until you can learn not to go past the fence." It does NOT say, "Well, I'm afraid you MIGHT entice your brothers and sisters to also go past the fence, so... you gotta leave." It does NOT say, "You're a BAD child! VERY bad! I told you NOT to go past that fence and, well, look here, you've gone past it again. So, now, get OUT, you dumb, stupid, idiot, child. You DON'T belong to me and you DON'T belong here!"

    It DOES say, "Dear one, you cannot play in the street because you might be killed and I would lose you." It says, "Child, this is the 4th time you've passed the fence - am I not making myself clear? I don't want you to go past the fence, because... and since you seem to have a problem staying inside the fence, you must now stay in the house... because I don't want to lose you." It says, "Well, okay, I don't really like it that you go beyond the fence, because in my eyes you're still my baby, but... you're older now and need to decide FOR YOURSELF whether going beyond the fence is a good thing or not. I cannot keep making decisions for you. I believe I raised you right and so you'll do the right thing. I TRUST you."

    It says... and THIS is the "displine of Christ"... "Child, you're going to make mistakes. Sometimes BIG ones. Sometimes really stupid ones. because you are imperfect and exist in sin. BUT... I will STILL love you... and would STILL give my life for you. If you disobeyed me... and went beyond the fence... and the "bad" men I told you about snatched you up... and took you from me... do NOT despair! I would NOT stop loving you for making that mistake - rather, I would spend the rest of my days LOOKING FOR YOU. And... I would FIND you. Because I love you. You are mine... and I won't lose you! BUT... we might AVOID all of that... if YOU... trust ME... and do what I say. NOT because I am trying to limit your life, but because I am trying to protect... and save... it."

    THAT... dear Debator... is the "discipline" of Christ. THAT is what HE says (i.e., "not one was lost"... "leave the 99 and find the 1..."), and what WE are to learn.

    As for rebuke showing "love"... I am directed by my Lord to ask what "love" was in HIS heart... when he told Satan, "May JAH rebuke YOU!" What "love" what Michael showing for that Devil, when HE stated the same thing? How about when angel said it, as recorded by Zechariah?

    A rebuke is NOT a thing done in love; a REPROOF... can be given, but ONLY in love. And, to be honest... that is what I am trying to do here, with you: get you to see that you have been misled... AWAY from the Most Holy One of Israel... by being led AWAY from Christ... by following others, rather than the LAMB... and ONLY the Lamb... wherever HE goes. And it isn't into the WTBTS - their very real estate holdings and wealth should tell YOU that. I ask you, given what you know of Christ, if he were to return today... do you REALLY think he'd head for Brooklyn or Patterson... or Walkhill? TRULY??

    C'mon, dear one... ALLOW yourself to THINK. Turn around... and THINK! What did Christ have? What buildings, and factories, and schools, and... and... and... He had NO WHERE TO LAY HIS HEAD. Do you REALLY think he's going to be impressed with all of that? Really?

    We are ont talking about silly little offences and personal injuries but major sins that we have to keep the congregation clean from for protection.

    That is what you've been told and, again, you have been misled. According to Christ, you shouldn't even offer up your gift at the ALTAR... if you know your brother has something against you! What Jew could live without being able to complete his/her offering? How was their error COVERED? Did not their own sins "remain" UNTIL such offering was given? And now, Christ is recorded to say you CAN'T make such an offering UNTIL you make peace with your brother? And why IS this? Beause... you HAVE to make it right... otherwise, you... and your gift... are "unclean" and thus, unacceptable. How do we know? We have the account... of CAIN.

    It is the same with eating his flesh and drinking his blood - if we have not "cleansed" ourselves (removed anger, hatred, hypocrisy, judging, and the like)... we, too, are "unclean"... our "offering" is unclean... and we eat and drink "unworthily."

    Pay attention, dear Debator. Please. You are not here in the place by accident. If you were TRULY certain that the WTBTS was "the way"... you would NOT have come here. Because there would be nothing here FOR you. But... you have doubts... as well you should. So, you are here for a reason: you are looking for "the truth."

    But the Truth... is not a religion... it is not an "earthly organization (indeed, it is not an EARTHLY anything!). It is not a "what" or a "where"... it is a WHOM! John 14:6

    In closing, I want to say that while I admire your staunch loyalty, it is seriously misdirected. It SHOULD be pointed toward the One appointed by God... Christ... and NO ONE ELSE. Your gaze... should be on the Copper Serpent... and no other. But you have missed that point entirely. Let's hope it's not to YOUR spiritual "detriment."

    Again, I bid you peace!

    YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,


Share this