debator Ray never denied that he made a profit from his books, I can respect his honesty . Can the wbts also claim to have never engaged in financial fraud? Careful please be honest
Hi outlaw and recovering
With respect both you admit ray sold the books for personal profit but any accusations of fraud you do against the witnesses is just slander. Are either of you prepared to accuse them in a court of law?
It's easy to say they take donations therefore they defraud people of money well if thats the case all churches and charities are guilty of fraud.
Anyway the argument of they did it, so it's okay for ray to do it is a flawed argument. Because your trying to justify a wrongdoing by saying someone else did the wrongdoing. Child A says he stole because child B stole first that just makes both of them thiefs. Is child A to be forgiven because he was an honest thief and made a profit openly?
But like I said I gave a specific reason why I think ray was not to be listened to which is verifiable and acknowledged by you. You just bring me an unproven accusation asking me to defend it as if it was proven against the witnesses. I do not need to defend unproven slander!
Writing a book and have it published and sold is not a crime for heavens sake. If you maintained this rule of thumb for every book available you'd never read one!!!! If Ray could make a living while at the same time helping others with his story then why shouldnt he? If you read it you'd see how much hard work he put into it too.
I don't have to accuse them in a court of law since they have already lost a case in court regarding fraud and their sale of ‘Miracle Wheat . So yes I am prepared to go to court if they are willing to challange my allegation of the fraud they commited in this example since definitive proof is already been accepted in a court of law. I told you to be careful how you answered. Ray never claimed he was not making any money from his book (hence no financial fraud) The witnesses under Russell made fraudulent claims about this wheat for financial gain. You don't believe me? Here is an article in a brooklyn paper detailing what happened.
$1 Per Pound
The Eagle’s story, based on an ad Russell placed in his Watch Tower publication for wheat seed the growth of which would supposedly be miraculous, was a sensation but resulted in a lawsuit — one that the Eagle won! This is a reprint of the article in part:
“After the ‘work’ had been well started here, ‘Pastor’ Russell’s Watch Tower publication advertised wheat seed for sale at $1.00 a pound [quite expensive in those days].
“It was styled ‘Miracle Wheat,’ and it was asserted that it would grow five times as much as any other brand of wheat.
“There were other claims made for the wheat seed, and the followers were advised to purchase it, the proceeds to go to the Watch Tower and be used in publishing the ‘pastor’s’ sermons.
“The Eagle first made public the facts about these new ventures of the Russellites and it published a cartoon picturing the ‘Pastor’ and his ‘Miracle Wheat’ in such a way that ‘Pastor’ Russell brought suit for libel, asking $100,000 damages.
“Government departments investigated the wheat for which $1.00 a pound was asked, and agents of the Government were important witnesses at the trial of the libel suit in January, 1913.
“The ‘Miracle Wheat’ was low in the Government tests, they said. The Eagle won the suit.” Relevant articles appeared in The Brooklyn Daily Eagle in the month of January 1913. The titles and their dates were:
1/1: Miracle Wheat Scandal
1/22: Testimony of Russelite Beliefs
1/23-24: Testimony on ‘Miracle Wheat’
1/25: Financial statements proving Russell’s absolute control were made by [Watch Tower] Secretary-Treasurer Van Amberg who was quoted as saying, “… We are not responsible to anyone for our expenditures. We are responsible only to God.”
Some Jehovah’s Witnesses these days may wish to minimize the significance of the “Miracle Wheat” claiming that the profits from its sales went to the Watchtower Society and not to Russell himself. However the records show that Russell owned 990 of the 1,000 shares of Watchtower Society stock. By this figure, 99% of every “contribution” for Miracle Wheat” was in effect a contribution to Russell himself.
You have a bad habit of talking out of your ass..
I have no idea what Ray did with the money..Maybe you could show JWN where I said,what Ray did with the money?..
Where did I accuse Jehovah`s Witness`s of fraud?.....Maybe you could show the board that too?..
Remember..Jehovah`s Witness`s and the WBT$ are not one and the same..
If you can`t prove anything you have said
You should try McDonalds new "Shut the F*ck-Up" Burger..
debator, Ray Franz got kicked out of Bethel in his late 50's with little money left. I do not blame him for writing a book for some $$$ so he can support himself and his wife. Alot of people has been helped by his book, so thats worth it!
"he commited the sin of divisiveness and paid the consequences"
Wrong. He committed the sin of eating lunch with a guy.
There are those who are of the "Watchtower 'Anointed'" and then there are those of the true anointed. Trust me, there's a difference. I knew I was one of the true anointed... at one time... but it took me a while to figure out the difference between the two. Unfortunately I ignored the call out of Watchtower-and-family-created fear and I paid the price with my soul.
Don't anybody here make the same mistake if you have those feelings.
Greetings, dear Debator... and, again, may you have peace! I would like to respond, and ask that you not take my using capital letters as shouting - I do not intend that at all; rather, I am simply emphasizing where I believe you missed... and/or need to get... a point. Thank you!
If all you get from 1 cor 11 is not to gobble hungrily then you missed the fullness of the whole subject that is discussed and the importance of it.
Well, that isn't ALL I got... and I think my response indicates that (and if that's all YOU got that I got... then you either didn't fully read... or fully comprehend... what I wrote).
Being anointed isn't about you gaining heaven but about you making a commitment completely to Jehovah through his son Jesus as head of the body.
I am sorry but you are absolutely in error, here, dear one. Being "anointed"... is being chosen for God, by Christ, which choosing is done by means of a pouring out of "oil" (of exultation) UPON the one chosen... which oil... is holy spirit. One is "anointed"... with holy spirit... which holy spirit FILLS such one... and becomes IN such one a "fountain bubbling up" to "impart everlasting life." And such "anointing" designates them AS a chosen VESSEL... one who "carries" the spirit of God... IN them... as a part of His "temple." Do you need me to direct you to the scriptures and verses that [prove] this?
I see you are earnest but the anointed are known by their unity of brotherhood.
Indeed! We are VERY much in union... with one another... and with Christ. But NOT with Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Harlots, which are those who PROFESS a "union" with Christ... and say, of themselves, "I sit a queen" (i.e., they have a husband, a king)... but prove themselves to be ADULTERESSES... because of their FORNICATION... with the "kings of the earth." And the "kings of the earth" are NOT "governments" (the "superior authorities which God Himself placed in their positions)... but those on the earth... who have their minds ON THE THINGS OF THE EARTH... who TEACH others to have their minds on the things of the earth... made up of pharisaical RELIGIOUS LEADERS... who "shut up the kingdom of the HEAVENS before men... because they themselves ARE NOT GOING IN. They are those who... RATHER THAN REMAIN FAITHFUL ONLY TO THE TRUE "HUSBANDLY OWNER"... AND "LEADER"... CHRIST... have other MEN as their "leaders". They FOLLOW such men... and the LAWS of such men... thereby constituting themselves SPIRITUAL ADULTERESSES... because they disregard the LAW of their TRUE Husband... for the "laws" of such ment. They are those who... RATHER THAN FOLLOW THE LAMB... WHEREVER HE GOES... follow "certain men." Because they love the GLORY of men... rather than the glory of God.
IF they truly WERE "anointed"... they would need ANYONE to be teaching them... ESPECIALLY NON-anointed; rather, the anointing that is IN them... would teach them. Just as John SAID it would. But that are NOT true anointed; they are IMPOSTERS, FALSE "anointed" (christs)... and false prophets.
Are you not judging the anointed among the witnesses? You call them false and yet criticise them for thinking the same of you?
I am judging NO ONE... and that you ask this shows me that you do not understand "judging" any more than you understand "anointing." If a man kills in cold blood... he is murderer. That I call him a murderer... does NOT constitute my judging of him. If, though, I say, "He is a murderer and should DIE for such murder,"... THEN, I have judged him. If a man commits adultery, he is an adulter. That I CALL him an adulterer is NOT judging him. If, though, I say, "You are an adulterer and because of this you should DIE for your adultery," then I am judging him.
I openly professed my union with Christ. I did not hide it - yet, they said no union took place. At the SAME time, THEY say, "No can if someone is or is not." I can explain... and PROVE my anointing. Because THAT is how the spirit works! But CAN... they?
It is not unknown for two different Christian churches whose members all partake yet they allow them to kill each other in wars?
This is absolutely true. It is also KNOWN... that Jehovah's Witnesses will try to "kill"... SPIRITUALLY... all those who don't worship as/agree with them. They get this from Paul's early erroneous teachings about "removing" people from the congregation. Paul OVERSTEPPED the commandments of Christ with that directive, which almost tore the Corinthian congregation apart. The APOSTLES did not agree... nor did most of the congregation. THEY... followed Christ's admonition (Matthew 18:15-18), which the WTBTS also oversteps (where is the congregation EVER asked to weigh in when someone commits a sin? Ever?)
Yet, when a man who was NOT associated with the disciples when healing the sick IN THE NAME OF CHRIST... and the apostles PROTESTED because, as THEY said, "He is not following with US," what did Christ say to THEM? He said: "Do NOT you mean try to prevent him because HE THAT IS NOT AGAINST YOU... IS FOR YOU."
Yet, when I professed my anointing to the "brothers" (yeah, right)... I was told NOT to speak of it and NOT to share what the Holy Spirit was revealing to ME. That SAME Spirit sent me to Bethel where I spoke with Carey Barber... and HE did not call me an apostate. To the contrary, he was TERRIFIED when we spoke. Because HE knew... that I knew... once I spoke with him... that he was NOT anointed... in any way, size, shape, or form. And what was I sent to tell him? That the teaching of one paying for one's sins when one dies... IS A LIE (and no, I did NOT tell him in that way, but in a most LOVING and KIND way). It is LIE... because YOUR blood can't ATONE... for a doggone thing. YOUR blood cannot PAY for your sins. When YOU die... you REMAIN dead... until you are resurrected... either to LIFE (by the blood of CHRIST, and NO other, including yourself)... or JUDGMENT (because the WAGE of your sin IS death... but the GIFT that God gives is life... THROUGH CHRIST... and if Christ has not GRANTED you such gift... you are judged for your sins).
You are right many on here have devoted their positions to a complete hatred of witnesses
And that is wrong as well, and anyone here can tell that I would never subscribe to such a thing. Indeed, we are to love even our enemies. That is a COMMANDMENT from Christ.
holding them under unrealistic telescopic lens of criticism they happily swallow whole from other Christian faiths.
They are doing no more than the Witnesses did in their early years. I exhort YOU to go back and read pages 69-70 of the Proclaimers Book. It was Jehovah's Witnesses that TAUGHT these to "hate their enemies."
but to be hated is expected.
Yes, of course. And everybody hates Jehovah's Witnesses, right? Yet... everybody LOVES and speaks SO highly of Jehovah's Witnesses. Right? Can you truly have it BOTH ways, dear Debator?
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.
That is why the world hates you.
And, yet, Jehovah's Witnesses PRIDE themselves on how much they are LOVED in the world. Do you not read the Awake! articles? Are you really not paying attention? According to THEM... they are considered "exemplary" in the world and used as every "good" example. Employers choose them over others. Governments laud them for their [appearance of] good works. Yet, THEY... won't speak to their own family members, won't even help them in their dying need.
(And just so you know, this is the very verse I showed my former PO at a Memorial event about 3 years ago... when no one would speak to me. As I said to him, "I guess we now know WHO the "world" is, don't we brother? Because my neighbors don't hate me. My worldly family doesn't hate me. My co-workers don't hate me. The ONLY PEOPLE ON THE PLANET who speak ill of me, gossip about me, say harmful and hurtful things about me... behind my back... because they won't even acknowledge me to my face... are you folks. And why, dear brother? Because I profess a union with Christ by means of an anointing with holy spirit... which anointing is teaching me." It is they who "gnash their teeth" at me, dear Debator; not the other way around. And the next year, when I approached the same brother to greet - because "elders" can at least acknowledge you, even if it's with a nod and frozen smile (for the non-Witness "guests" to see, so they don't LOOK like they hate someone) - and he asked me, "Well, if we're SO bad, why do you keep coming here?... because I attend the Memorial each year, the Holy Spirit replied, THROUGH me... "Because MY love... for YOU, Brother... has NOT failed." He response? He turned and walked away.)
I think I would respect opinion on this debate site more if it was less unremittingly biased against the witnesses.
Of course you would, dear Debator, but that's because you're still loyal to them. And loyalty is a COMMENDABLE virtue and one you should keep up... so long as you CAN. However, don't get offended when others oppose you... IF they oppose you with TRUTH. Because that is what your "love" is supposed to be about, anyway, isn't? The TRUTH? Regardless of where it comes from... or whom it comes through?
There should be NO fear, then, in hearing others out... hearing WHY they feel about the WTBTS and its members as they do. I mean, if God is FOR you... and Jehovah's Witnesses... then who can be AGAINST you? You have nothing TO fear... and SHOULD be able to stand with your arguments. I must warn you, however, and do so I ALL love, respect, and sincerity... you won't be able to. Because the arguments and teachings of the WTBTS are just as false... as they are.
I bid you peace, and I remain...
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
My dearest Outlaw... the greatest of love and peace to you, my dear one!
A favor, please? Dear Debator is only trying to defend his faith. Please... don't be so harsh with him? I know, I know... he should be able to take it, if he dishes it out. But we know that that is not always the case - it pretty much only works one way with Jehovah's Witnesses - their way. Give him time? Perhaps he will calm down and start reading what others respond to him. Or... turn tail and run.
I TRULY hope it is not the latter (although, I also hope that what he gets here from some does not utterly "shipwreck" his faith). It does not have to, as some of us know (indeed, you CAN find your faith GROWING, dear Debator, as many here have. You just have to learn to "discern" what is good "food"... and what may not be. Christ can help you with that... if you listen to him).
Anyway, peace to you both... and let's all "play nice", shall we?
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
Debator must have become a Dub in the mid-90s or later, because EVERY book made by the WTS before that was SOLD, not given away on a donation basis. The Aid book, IIRC, went for $10. So if it was wrong for private citizen Raymond Franz to write and sell books, it was equally wrong for supposedly non-profit corporation Watch Tower Society to write and sell books during that same time period.
Also, debator, you mentioned how hatred is expected by you. I will say this clearly and briefly so you don't miss the point:
If you are hated on this board it is NOT in fulfillment of scripture because Jesus said his followers would be hated for the sake of his name. If you are hated on this board it is because of your disingenuousness and lack of respect for your fellowman.