I like to keep the boundaries clear. I'm not sure I would say I like a prolonged debate especially if we are just repeating the same points. The gb are humble because they are humble. Admittedly the Pope with his country, palace and jewels and papal infalibility is an easy target.
What is idolatry? Can using the Bible as God's word and sword of the spirit mean idolatry? Can the "cross" a carved, wood, gold, silver mute image of Jesus in god's house be anything but an idol biblically?
You and I clearly have different ideas on what these terms mean and cover biblically. so we may have to agree to disagree
Yes we do have different ideas of what the words mean. I could not help but recall that Jesus too, explained that he had different definitions also, such as the ones written at Matt. 5:28. So you see, it is not important how we define things, but instead how our Father does. Anything at all that takes the position that only belong to Jesus, and takes away from the service that only belongs to him is Idolatry.
Have you ever wondered why gluttons are mentioned among such sinners as Murderers, and thieves?
Debator, as a self-proclaimed debator you have a pretty bad track record, at least here. You have not won one debate, or even made any valid arguments. May I suggest a change in name? Such as 'loser', or perhaps 'bs'...
Unfortunately I ignored the call out of Watchtower-and-family-created fear and I paid the price with my soul.
I do not believe this. Not for one moment. We can all 'start from scratch' so to speak. I made a choice that I worried about too. But we can all repent at any time, and so build a relationship with Christ and His Father.
Think of the parable of the lost son. Think of the rejoicing in heaven over the one sinner who repents. Hope is a scary thing to regain once you've lost it, I know.
What is impossible with man, is possible with God.
and thank you for your replies I have read all of them.
While I feel I am only repeating myself for most of you when we get into a "yes he did /no he didn't" scenario I will address them this last time.
Yes Ray did nothing wrong by worlds standards. His selling his words/batrayal against witnesses God's people and drawing countless numbers away for profit is something he will have to answer to Jehovah our God for. You may think he will get a pat on the back for it, I don't.
Ray has to answer for the content of the book/s. While Jehovah's witnesses are clearly not Jesus, the principle of Judas being condemned for making a profit by betrayal is in the bible.
Oh dear if miracle wheat from 100 years ago is the best you can find against them, when they were barely formed as a religion and still getting heavily refined as a religion. When Russell had to carry the burden of the whole religion until it could get more spread out. Russell did loose his suit of The Daily Eagle, but no charge was made against Russell of selling any phony wheat. Losing his OWN suit for libel against them is not the same and being brought up for fraud in a court of law. your own description loses your point for you.
If this is the worse you can find against them as ground for calling Jehovah's witnesses defrauders then I am reasured. Incidently did Russel anjoy a pope-like lifestyle living off his religion or was he an already rich man that plowed every peeny he owned into the pearl of finding bible truths?
Ray lived personally off his profits that is already established from my own knowledge of him and what people have said on here. He joined a bible group and never worked again aside from writing the books. His writings are used purely to help people leave the witnesses and for nothing else. He was/is the standard bearer for those rejecting witnesses. Whether this is good or not? that is really dependant on the viewpoint of the individuals and ultimately upto Jehovah to judge.
You lost me half way down when you said Paul did false teachings if you reject some of Gods inspired Bible, thatis pretty much is final for me. IMO no anointed would reject the Bible as God's word! All of it is written by his as you said "chosen" people. You say you are unified with the other anointed yet reject Pauls teachings who was an anointed inspired apostle?
I respect you opinion but I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you completely.
Greetings, dear Debator, and, again... peace to you!
You lost me half way down when you said Paul did false teachings
Dear one, Paul himself corrected his teachings. What you miss is that his letter to the Corinthians came BEFORE his letter to the Romans. Let me show you what I mean:
1. In his SECOND letter to the Corinthians (which you know as "1st Corinthians" but that is incorrect - his first letter was suppressed by the Council that canonized the Bible)... Paul referred to his FIRST letter ("I wrote to you to quit mixing in the company of fornicators..."). In that SECOND letter, he directed the congregation to (1) "removed the wicked man", and (2) "judge those on the inside."
Well, this didn't go over so well... with the apostles (who has literally walked with Christ, unlike Paul, and so learned FROM Christ to NOT judge but forgive and release... AND to take such matters to the CONGREGATION when the offender did not listen, first, to the one, and second, when the one took one or two more with him...). The result caused SUCH a division that:
2. In his THIRD letter to the Corinthians (which you know as "2nd Corinthians" but that is incorrect and Paul STATES in this letter that "This is the THIRD time I am coming to you...")... Paul changed his position and said to the congregation:
"This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him.For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU , whether YOU are obedient in all things. Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too."
Now, I know that the WTBTS teaches that, "evidently," "apparently," "reasonably" and so on, that the man "repented." There is NOTHING in Paul's statements, however that indicate this. There IS something, however, that indicates that the matter DIDN'T HINGE on the man's repentance: Christ's mercy. For example, when a woman CAUGHT IN THE ACT OF ADULTERY was brought to him... HE DID NOT CONDEMN HER. If, then, Christ, who was WITHOUT sin... did not condemn a woman CAUGHT in sin... who in the WORLD was Paul to do so? He was no one... and so, seeing how much division HIS decision (NOT Christ's) caused... he recanted and changed his position.
And how do we know that he changed his position regarding such things? Not ONLY did he recant to the Corinthians, but ONE YEAR LATER... he wrote to the ROMAN congregation (yes, his letter to the Romans was AFTER his letters to the Corinthians, although it is placed in the Bible BEFORE the others - and there is a REASON for this!):
"... why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God..." Romans 14:10
and (and here's the kicker):
"Therefore let us not be judging one another any longer..." Romans 14:13
Again, Paul's letter to the ROMANS... was written AFTER his letters... to the Corinthians!
if you reject some of Gods inspired Bible
The Bible... is not inspired, dear one. SCRIPTURE... is inspired and the Bible is NOT scripture. The Bible CONTAINS scripture (as well as histories, chronologies, records, and letters). Scripture... is "Moses, the Psalms, and the Prophets":
"And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures." Luke 24:27
"... they said to each other: “Were not our hearts burning as he was speaking to us on the road, as he was fully opening up the Scriptures to us?” Luke 24:32
"He now said to them: “These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU , that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.”Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures..." Luke 24:44, 45
The SCRIPTURES are those writings that occurred "while men were BORNE ALONG BY HOLY SPIRIT." Paul was not so borne when he wrote - indeed, Paul did not write, but dictated and many OTHERS wrote FOR him. Luke SAYS how he got what he did... and it was NOT by holy spirit but from others who were "eyewitnesses." Indeed, Luke wasn't even told to write by God: he was COMMISSIONED BY THEOPHILUS.
Also, where are the other "scriptures"? Where is the Book of Enoch? How about the Book of Jashar? The Book of Jubilees? All of THESE are "scripture"; yet, they are NOT contained in the Bible canon. Why not? Because the Council that CANONIZED the Bible in the 4th centure CE... chose not to INCLUDE them. As they chose not to include Paul's FIRST letter to the Corinthians. I ask YOU: if the second and third letters were "inspired"... why wasn't the first? And if it was... and the Bible is "God's word"... why wasn't it included?
that is pretty much is final for me. IMO no anointed would reject the Bible as God's word!
That's because you have been taught by FALSE anointed/christs... that the Bible IS God's word. IT IS NOT. And I will use the Bible to SHOW you that TRUTH. According to the BIBLE, God's word is identified:
"In the beginning was the Word..." John 1:1
"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth." John 1:14
"and the name he is called is The Word of God." Revelation 19:13
Yes, yes... I know... you're going to say, "Well, that's talking about God's Word, Christ"... and you are correct. But let's take it a step further. In one of its "Questions to the Readers," the WTBTS asks, "What is the truth that sets you free?" Their answer? "It is the truth set forth in God's word, the Holy Bible." But is that the TRUTH? Let's see what the Bible itself has to say on the matter:
"I... am the Way... and the Truth... and the Life." John 14:6
So, okay... big deal. Well, it really IS a big deal, because John ALSO records my Lord as saying:
“If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples,and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.”John 6:32
We've all heard that verse a gazillion times, haven't we? BUT... what about the fourth verse that follows it?
"Therefore if the Son sets YOU free, YOU will be actually free." John 8:36
Hmmmm... "if the SON"... who, note, according to John 14:6 is the TRUTH... sets you free... you will actually BE free. THINK on it, dear Debator. But I am not through, yet. Let's go to another verse the that WTBTS and others use to support their false teaching that the Bible is God's word. Christ, is recorded to have begged, of the Father:
"Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." John 17:17
So, okay, we already have John 14:6, where Christ states that HE is the truth. Is there a verse somewhere that PROVES that he is speaking of himself as that "word"... or the Bible? There is:
"Hence Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate." Hebrews 13:12
So, let's take this LOGICALLY:
1. The truth shall set you free (John 8:23)
2. Christ is the TRUTH (John 14:6)... and the Son that sets you free (John 8:36)
3. God's people are "sanctified" by means of His word (John 17:1)
4. Christ is God's Word (John 1:1; 1:14; Revelation 19:13)
5. Christ is the One who "sanctifies" the people... by means of his blood (Hebrews 13:12)
So, okay, now, show me... PLEASE... where the Bible says:
1. That it is God's word
2. That it is/contains the truth that sets us free
3. That it is the truth
4. That it sanctifies God's people
All of it is written by his as you said "chosen" people.
That does not make it "scripture," dear one... nor "inspired." SCRIPTURE... is that which is written while the writer is IN SPIRIT (i.e., "inspired"), BORN ALONG BY HOLY SPIRIT... and TOLD to write. Not every book contained in the Bible can make this claim (that all three are present in its case)... nor is every book that CAN make that claim contained in the Bible.
You say you are unified with the other anointed yet reject Pauls teachings who was an anointed inspired apostle?
Paul was anointed... but not inspired (at least, not all the time) because: one, there were times when he SAID he was speaking his own opinion; and, two, the Holy Spirit does not lie... or change. Truth... is ALWAYS truth. Yet, Paul changed his position between his letters to the Corinthians and that to the Romans. There is no "tacking" with holy spirit, dear Debator - it the same today, yesterday... and tomorrow. There is NO WAY that Paul could have been inspired... and then changed his teachings. And he did just that. Sorry, dear one, but the Holy Spirit just doesn't operate that way... contrary to what you have been taught by men.
The "light" does NOT "get brighter." Indeed, there is NO scripture or verse that says it does. That teaching, too... is a LIE.
And the reason that the WTBTS teaches FOR Paul's being chosen is yet another LIE. They teach that Paul was chosen for his "zeal." Dear one, Paul was chosen to replace Stephen, in whose death he had a direct hand. SOMEONE had to "declare abroad the excellencies" of God's kingdom. Stephen was doing that when, with the approval of Paul, he was stoned to death. So, OF Paul, my Lord said to Ananias:
"... this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. For I shall show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.” Acts 9:15, 16
And suffer he did. Paul did all he could to ATONE for the lives [of Christ's belongings] that HE was responsible for. Thus, toward the END of his assignment, he stated (as Luke recorded):
"... look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went preaching the kingdom will see my face no more.Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men ..." Acts 20:26
Paul... had a BLOODGUILT. However, by the MERCY of Christ, he was able to RECOMPENSE for that... by giving himself... and suffering... as Christ's servant.
I respect you opinion but I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you completely.
You are absolutely free to disagree with me, dear one. I am nothing. NOTHING... and no one. I am merely a servant to the Household of God, Israel... all those who go WITH that "house"... and the world. I share these things with you NOT because I want anything from you... including your acceptance or belief... but because of my LOVE... for the One who gives them to me. And because they are the TRUTH. As one of his sheep... I OWE you love... and truth. I ask for and expect nothing in return - there is no gain to or for me. You listening to me... or not... will not add ONE CUBIT to MY lifespan. My life does not lay in your hands. Nor does yours in mine.
But how can I honestly say I love HIM... if I will not share what he gives me TO share? How can I say I have FAITH in him... if I don't have the COURAGE to share what he gives me? If I don't EXERCISE my faith IN it? How can I say I love those HE loves... if I withhold such truths... or if I taint them? It doesn't work that way, dear one. The anointing will not permit it: so long as I am in union with Christ... I MUST speak the truth... whether "Israel"... those who go with... or the world... hear or refrain.
So, you are absolutely RIGHT to examine what I share... indeed, to "test" it... and every inspired expression... INCLUDING PAUL'S... which I "tested"... because, as we know that not ALL inspired expressions originate with God (so that, simply saying that something/someone IS INSPIRED... does NOT mean the inspiration came from God, dear one!). And how do you "test" such things? With love, dear one... and the Holy Spirit. IF you have faith. If not... then you may need to see it in writing (but that should not be, should it, because we are supposed to walk by FAITH... and NOT by sight. Right?)
So, please... PLEASE... know that I do not wish you to listen to ME; to the contrary, if you knew me... and perhaps someday you will, as others here have come to know me... you will KNOW that it not MY word I wish you to hear... but Christ's. I would MUCH prefer that I did NOT have to share these things at ALL... that you would hear his voice FOR YOURSELF... that you, too, would receive the anointing with holy spirit that would teach YOU... and that you would allow my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, to lead YOU... into ALL truth. As he has done... and is yet doing with me.
Until that time, however, I must ask that you consider what I share as nothing more than MY attempt to give him something back... something... for what really do I have to give him... by sharing what he gives ME... with God's Household... those who go with... and the world. I received such FREE... and I give it... FREE. And freely. I ask nothing from you... or anyone. The Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, takes VERY good care of me: ALL of my needs are seen to and cared for.
So, there is nothing for you to do... for ME... nothing to contribute/donate to (well, okay, if you see someone in need and you have the means to do so, PLEASE... give to that one, in the name of my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH - but neither I or anyone of MY household need anything from you!)... nothing to join (other that the Body of Christ, but that is between you and him and has absolutely NOTHING to do with me!)... no church to attend (for we ARE the church, the congregation of the firstborn - the TEMPLE of God)... and nothing to read, research, or study.
There is NOTHING... except, perhaps, that you respond to the exhortation and invitation... from the Spirit and the Bride, who KEEP saying... even now:
"Come! ALl you who are thirsting... and ALL you who are wishing... COME! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, which spirit is poured out from the innermost parts of the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit... my Lord... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Son and Christ of the MOST Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... whose name is JAH... of Armies... FREE!"
I bid you the greatest of love and peace, dear Debator, and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride call to YOU... if you so wish it.
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and to the world... and a slave of Christ,
SA (who is a girl, BTW - )
You prove my point, You view his book as one that "helped people" to do what though? become better witnesses? find the true faith? Or Simply just leave Jehovah's people by setting up in opposition to the witnesses by his book? The Bible principle involved (beyond his profiteering off it) is this one.
Acts 5:38-39 (New International Version)
38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
IF we are not Jehovah's people he is okay, free and clear. You have to be confident in your choice if you make this move, as indeed the witnesses did in rejecting Christendom and it;s triune god. And accepting the consequences if you get it wrong.
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
I am well aware that once we charge a nominal amount for publications to cover printing costs but this is not profiteering for personal gain. It isn't the act of selling but selling for personal gain. If you queery our status as a religion or charity that has a right to gain funding for it's work for Jehovah as Jesus and apostles did themselves then that again is your opinion. But ray sold the book for personal gain and not for promoting God's work. this is comparing apples and oranges personal gain versus funding for God's work
My point was eactly the one you made the Bible God's own words defines "the cross" as an idol. By carving an image to represent Jesus or his death instrument and put it on altars or in God's house, carrying it about with them, they made it into an idol in the purest biblical definition of one. You allegations that the bible can be an idol are unsupported by scripture. We are supposed to use God's scripture it is the sword of the spirit.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edgedsword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:15
and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 4:13
Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
Would You even know about Jehovah and Jesus his son without God's word the bible?
Recognition of Jesus Jehovah's son does not mean we have to ignore his provisions or those of his father and spirit direction through the Bible is one of them.
Jesus does not cancel out the Bible he opened it up for us.
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
I seem to have upset you I apologise if you feel the need now to get nasty with me, this was not my intention when I debate. I defend Jehovah's witnesses whom I consider God's people on earth in this time.
you need to read his book or your eyes will never be opened to what is REALLY going on in the organization.
Respectfully I believe Your speculations on Paul's words and motivation are beyond what is written. Inspired scriptures God's words cannot cancel each other out You are just making it imperfect words of men but that is unscriptural.
2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.
and peter on Pauls words, all of them.
2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
The apostles themselves Acknowledged Pauls words to be scripture and not of his own interpretation so your saying he can and can't change his personal interpretations is in direct opposition to this biblical fact of all his words being scripture and not of his interpretation.
As for the position on repentence and forgiveness.... Jesus already set this in a fixed immutable position.
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
These are non-negotiable words from Jesus. forgiveness only comes after repentence.
I can only reiterate I have no interest in people that set themselves up in opposition to God's people and making a personal profit from it. He offers nothing that a believer in Jehovah would want to read. I respect misguided preachers from other religions more than those that devote there life to destroying one religion rather than preach God's word and bring people to his flock. I'm sorry if I sound harsh but ultimately Jehovah is the judge of us all.
"Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.'