Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog


    I couldn't find the James passage you talked about did you mean this one:

    1Ti 4:10 For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the preserver of all men, especially of those who believe.

    Many translate this "who is the savior of all men". There are a couple of issues with this passage. One would be, is God saving nonbelievers spiritualy? That would be hard to support with the rest of the scripture. Either way he saves all who are saved. Not every human in history.

  • tec

    DD - Yes. My bad.

    1Timothy 4:9-10 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    What issues? It seems to read very clearly. Anything on top of how it reads is open to interpretation, and in therefore, human error. Or the error could have been with the writers/or translation, etc.

    However the jury is still out on that one. Some say he gets saved later on.

    If you take that approach, then what is to stop anyone from using this same thing in regards to anything that doesn't make sense or agree with their thoughts? Something else could have happened later...

    When you say you love everybody. You don't love them all the same, do you? How many people would you die for? Would you die for everyone you know?

    I'm wondering why you keep pressing me on the issue of loving everyone. Do you not think that I actually can do this?

    But in answer, no, I don't love them all the same. I am a mother and a wife, a daughter and a sister. I love those people who are personal to me more than I love the rest of the world. But I do have a common love of compassion and caring for all mankind - including those who have wronged me. And I have this common love for my family as well.

    The only thing that keeps me from saying, yes, I would die for everyone I know or even don't know, is my children. I fear leaving them to continue on without me to love them. Perhaps that is a sign of weaker faith. But it is also born of love - and love covers over a multitude of sins.

    I will also be honest enough to acknowledge that no one(including me) knows for certain how they will react in any given/crisis situation. Fear and doubt can paralyze anyone.


  • tec

    Also, you didn't answer this:

    Without any judgment toward anyone except God. - DD

    How so? - Me

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything. I just don't understand what you mean, or why you think this.


  • not a captive
    not a captive


    I try to get the drift of Jesus' teaching and go in that direction. You are the stickler for only scripture. It is very interesting to me that you assume Mark 10:21-26 has a happy ending somewhere. Why assume the rich young gets saved?It is in the scriptures as it is.

    But I am certain that we have other examples of Jesus loving the unsaved. The widow's son of Nain is not fully established as saved, the demonized child was cured but we have no evidence that he was saved. We run into trouble if we try to follow Jesus around and sort out the saved from the damned aand the loved from the not loved.

    A large problem I have with "election", "predestination" is the same problem I have with "accurate knowledge" 1Tim.3:7 and "taking in knowlege" Jn. 17:3 in the NWT Bible. The Bible translations are heavily Calvinistic. They have the spin on them. I posted the information on that earlier on this thread. Not only that but these were later teachings than the early church dealt with--no aposltles were into it like Calvin. J.Calvin couldn't have had much holy spirit. As I understand it, Calvin saw to the burning of heretics. A grisley Christian, he. Not the right spirit.

    A problem I see that I likewise hard to deal with is the teaching I heard in a Calvinistic Baptist Church was one that naturally occurs from predesination is that God planned the fall to make his mercy manifest. I have a problem with that. "God saw that it was very good?" except that it wasn't good at all.

    What practical value is there in forcing people to claim one of the many kinds of predestination men have thought up?

    Paul said he resolved to know nothing else but Jesus Christ and him crucified/impaled. I figure Paul got his fill of disputes aplenty.

    What does all this "doctrine"matter?

  • PSacramento
    Does the term "selfrighteous" mean anything? I don't know or pretend to know who God loves and who he doesn't. But if you thought you could or should Judge God, wouldn't that require a huge amount of righteousness? You would have to possess more righteousness than God.

    It's not self-rigteous DD, far from it.

    What it is, is the simple recognition that a created being can't be MORE than it's creator and if God instilled in US these moral view of right and wrong then we can't be more right than God, can we?

    So, if no fallen human parent would be so cruel and uncaring as to predetermin which of his children would know his love and which wouldn't, neither would God do this.

    It's not being self righteous, its knowing that God is Love.

  • leavingwt
    So, if no fallen human parent would be so cruel and uncaring as to predetermin which of his children would know his love and which wouldn't, neither would God do this.
    It's not being self righteous, its knowing that God is Love.

    I like that.

  • PSacramento

    God is love and Love does not hate, so God did not Hate Esau, regardless of what was written.

    Can you fathom a God that Hated Esau before he was even thought of, Hated for what reason?

    God's indiscremanent Hate of people is all well and good for the OT Hebrews that viewed God that way, through Jesus we found that God is NOT that way.

    Salavation is possible for ALL for ALL are under Grace, Jesus taught to love our enemies, not just our brothers, ALL are to beloved.

    Are we superiour to God then if we do this?

    Of course not because ONLY when we HAVE God in US, CAN we do this and only when we do this IS God in Us.

    When Jesus separated the sheep and the Goats I don't recall he separated the "elected" and the "preordanied" ones.

  • leavingwt

    PSac -- Do you sometimes wonder whether or not you've fallen victim to what Walter Martin (and others) refer to as "The Cult of Liberal Theology"? Below is a sample.


  • PSacramento

    Well, here is the thing, I didn't read the Bibel and THEN I found God, I mean I had read the bible before but I didn't liek what I read, especially the NWT.

    Then I found God through Jesus, THEN I read the Bible, with the ONLY preconcieved notion that was revealed to me, that God is LOVE.

    Reading the Bible for the "first time" with Love in my heart, with the knowledge that God is love, wasn't easy, there was MUCH to reconcile.

    If that makes me a liberal, if by liberal that means that I believe that God is Love, that there can be no love without God, then yes, I am a liberal and very happy to be one.

  • leavingwt

    For PSac, some commentary on what I'm talking about. . .

    . . .

    Atheists do quite well creating liberal theologians. Just watch any show “investigating” Jesus, the Bible or similar and you’ll see professors from national seminaries denying the inerrancy of the Bible, resurrection of Jesus, virgin birth, and more. These aren’t in any meaningful way Christians, as atheist Christopher Hitchens says I would say that if you don’t believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Christ and Messiah, and that he rose again from the dead and by his sacrifice our sins are forgiven, you’re really not in any meaningful sense a Christian. 8

    Those “liberal Christians” aren’t Christians, any more than calling yourself the President gets you a ride on Air Force One.

    The cult of liberal theology is dangerous and heretical. As Paul warned Timothy these have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. These liberals are ever learning, yet never able to come to the knowledge of the truth (2 Timothy 2:7), with corrupt minds, and disapproved concerning the faith. They may have a PhD and other accolades, but they’re utterly unqualified in basic Biblical knowledge.

    Liberal Christians may posses the warm-and-fuzzy felling of religion, but share nothing with Jesus except ripping off his name.

    Once you start accepting liberal theology like Isaiah didn’t write the book bearing his name 9 , replacement theology (where the church replaces the Jews and Israel in God’s plan), Daniel was really written later 10 or other liberal theology garbage, it’s at that point you’ve denied God and become an atheist, not later. Liberal theologians deny most of the major tenets of Christianity — how can they call themselves Christians?

    The progression from orthodox Christianity, to liberalism, finally arriving at atheism can be subtle, as the change to atheist actually comes in the first step after rejecting the foundational tenets of Christianity, not the last small step to atheist.

    In a warning, the atheist notes his techniques don’t work on the traditional Christian, those who reject liberal theology and stand firm on the Word of God. But if you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything — including the cult of liberal theology.

    Stand firm on the truth, and reject liberal theology which has nothing in common with Christianity except the name — liberal scholars have created their own religion and abandoned Christianity.


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