PSac
DD, do you believe that having a choice is, the choice being up to us, is symbolic of free will?
I don't understand the question?
Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?
by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
Deputy Dog
-
tec
Without God preordaining it, NO human can or would ever desire God, because it's not in human nature to do so.
Are you sure that is a proof and not an interpretation?
I think people have been searching for God, or a god, or a goddess, (either way, a creator) for a very long time. Atheism seems quite new in comparison.
Acts 17: 26-28 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them, and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
Now for Romans:
9 Verse 22 - Paul says 'What if...'
9 Verse 32 - Paul's answer was not 'because God did not choose them to hear' but rather ' because they pursued it not by faith, but as if it were by works.'
10 Verse 14 - Does not ask how can they believe unless God enabled them. It says how can they believe if they have not heard. It does imply that those who preach were sent.
I see both predestination and choice in Romans.
Tammy
-
PSacramento
I don't understand the question?
In these passages, do you view the option to choose as free will or their choices were already preordained?
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)
“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” (Proverbs 3:31)
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) (If we had no choice, then knowing to do good would necessarily result in doing good.)
-
leavingwt
PSac -- Here you go. . .
-
PSacramento
The simple issue I have with predestination is, IF, it means that God has DESTINED some people beforehand to NEVER know God.
I don't have issues with it IF it means that God KNOWS that some people will never Know God.
-
leavingwt
The simple issue I have with predestination is, IF, it means that God has DESTINED some people beforehand to NEVER know God.
I don't have issues with it IF it means that God KNOWS that some people will never Know God.
In an abstract sense, perhaps it is different. To the outsider, it's billions and billions of humans who would have been better off not being born. 80 years on Earth and then an eternity of suffering? No thanks. Please sperm, choose another egg. I'll pass.
-
superpunk
Better to have lived and burned...
-
PSacramento
PSac -- Here you go. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
Oh, Iknow we are broken and I appreciate Augustine trying to put HIS view into words, as Paul did.
I do wonder what they would think about what thoe views caused when they became doctrines though.
-
leavingwt
Mark Twain (who is now in Hell?): " I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit."
-
PSacramento
In an abstract sense, perhaps it is different. To the outsider, it's billions and billions of humans who would have been better off not being born. 80 years on Earth and then an eternity of suffering? No thanks. Please sperm, choose another egg. I'll pass.
Think about what I wrote, a God that predetermins who knows him and who doesn't and goes about making sure they don't, is a cruel and unloving God, those people never stood a chance did they?
A God that knows that, no matter what God does, some people will always tuen their back on God, that is different, no?